The Greatest of the Eldar

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Galin, Without getting into a 'my canon is better than your canon' fight, ...'

In which battle The Lord of the Rings is mighty strong but there is another approach in any case.

'... post-LR Tolkien definitely included the 'sylvan' Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien among the Eldar, coining the term Nandor for them and making them cousins of the Laiquendi of Ossiriand. Under that understanding, the "East-elves" are somewhere, well... farther East.'

Not necessarily. The Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien can still be East-elves and not Eldar when later (but 'unpublished') texts are considered.

'The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor.' (...) 'The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward [i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age].' Unfinished Tales

The Tawarwaith were in origin Teleri, hardly to be distinguished from Avari (which thus distinguishes them actually), and were in origin Eldar.

'Nandor. This name must have been made at the time, in the latter days of the March, when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March; and it was especially applied to the large following of Lenwe who refused to cross the Hithaeglir. The name was often interpreted as 'Those who go back'; but in fact none of the Nandor appear to have returned, or to have joined the Avari. Many remained and settled in lands that they had reached, especially beside the River Anduin; some turned aside and wandered southwards'. Q&E

So, Mirkwood and Lórien: mostly 'East-elves' (The Lord of the Rings). The East-elves were probably a mix of Nandor (Eldar 'in origin') and Avari. The term Eldar becomes narrowed again to basically West-elves (it had been narrowed already in the internal history). This is not only a possible explanation (in my opinion), using both The Lord of the Rings and unpublished texts, but I note an earlier situation with respect to the Danas revealed in The History of Middle-Earth:

'In any case, the Danas are sufficiently characterised as Elves of the Great March who abandoned it early on but who still felt a desire for the West (...) Their position is anomalous, and might equally well be classified either as Eldarin or as not Eldarin.'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary The Lhammas HME V

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In QS, contemporary with the Lhammas, Tolkien had *all* the Danians eventually go on to Beleriand, without leaving any kin behind; and (consonant with the Lhammas quote) used the term Pereldar 'half-Eldar' for them. (Thus of course when the Lorien chapters were written the Elves of Lorien were seen as Avari save for Galadriel herself. In this connection Imrazor+Mithrellas isn't counted in the Appendices as a Man-Elda marriage. But under the later conception this can be regarded as a needed correction overlooked, like 'House of Finrod.'


In 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' T says that Galadriel in Eregion had

come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lorinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains. This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuivienen and settled in the woods of the Vales of Anduin.... Many Sindar and Noldor came to live among them, and their 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture began

No suggestion of Avari being present in the mix.

At any rate, for the purposes of this discussion, it's enough to observe that no named Avar ever appears, so it's silly to look among them for a 'great' Elf.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In QS, contemporary with the Lhammas, Tolkien had *all* the Danians eventually go on to Beleriand, without leaving any kin behind; and (consonant with the Lhammas quote) used the term Pereldar 'half-Eldar' for them.

The point was simply that Tolkien could, and already had, thought of a group whose status as 'Eldar' might depend upon its application. Later (and basically) Eldar: originally all Elves ('People of the Stars'), narrows to 'Marchers' (properly excludes the Avari), and narrows to 'West Elves' (properly excludes the Silvan Elves or East-elves of Mirkwood and Lórien).

(Thus of course when the Lorien chapters were written the Elves of Lorien were seen as Avari save for Galadriel herself. In this connection Imrazor+Mithrellas isn't counted in the Appendices as a Man-Elda marriage. But under the later conception this can be regarded as a needed correction overlooked, like 'House of Finrod.'

But why disregard a prime source and the ultimate conception described in it to conclude a correction is needed? Mithrelass is a Silvan Elf, thus not an Elda. No correction needed.

Indeed in UT Mithrellas 'was of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey)' Nimrodel was a Silvan Elf, and sought to pass over Sea. These Elves are not Eldarin because that are not of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of days, including not being Sindarin (who achieved Beleriand of course).

In 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' T says that Galadriel in Eregion had (... edit quote). No suggestion of Avari being present in the mix.

But in other later but unpublished texts (like Quendi And Eldar) there are Avari in the mix, and I was including them. If one excludes the Avari, OK, but then the Nandor of these two realms are still not Eldar by its later, narrowed sense.

'Elves has been used to translate both Quendi, 'the speakers', the High-elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).' (RotK, Appendix F)

Or

'The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien; but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.' Return of the King

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

At any rate, for the purposes of this discussion, it's enough to observe that no named Avar ever appears, so it's silly to look among them for a 'great' Elf.

I can answer with one word:

Eöl

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Eol was *not* of the Avari, but of the Sindar.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Lord of the Rings hardly represents an "ultimate" conception.

Moreover, I find no warrant for a 'late' or 'final' formulation wherein "Eldar' has been narrowed to "Elves of Valinor + Sindar." The Eldar were those who embarked on the March, whether they finished it or not. The only change which occurred relative to the Silvans was the recognition that they were part of the March.