HOB - Chapters into Scenes Weekly - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Macalaure · 01-01-2008, 10:11 AM

Starting the film like the book is probably not a favorable thing. The Unexpected Party is maybe the lightest part of the book, even when a lot of childishness is removed. A more dark prologue could win us the favor of the "ignorant part of the audience", so that we could then get away with making the Party more faithful to the book without disappointing some from the beginning on.

I was going to suggest a similar thing as Nogrod just suggested:
One very important scene is how Gollum loses the ring and I can't think of a way to insert it before the Riddles in the Dark part. It also cannot be omitted because that would leave a plot hole. Why not make it the opening scene then? It would be a dark beginning to see Gollum lose the ring while killing an Orc child, that's true, but it would be followed and balanced by the lighter Unexpected Party. Another benefit is that it would connect Hobbit and LotR with maybe the most recognisable character and the most recognisable item of both books. The audience is going to expect Gollum anyway, so leaving him as a surprise isn't going to work.

One thing that I think should not be done is show Smaug in a prologue. That would be a too much of a spoiler. The dragon needs to remain a mystery that is only named and not shown until Bilbo finally meets him.

The bit of dwarven history is very interesting and should definitely be included, but as others have already said, I don't see the necessity to do that in a prologue. We can find some quiet place later where Thorin or Balin can give Bilbo a small history lecture.

Nazgûl-king · 01-01-2008, 12:34 PM

I like the idea of starting with Gollum losing the ring, maybe they could do something like; start with Gollum rowing in his boat, then he sneaks up on land behind a goblin and starts choking it, and as he is choking it the ring escapes him, and we see the ring bouncing from the rocks and then landing on the ground. Then the scene could end with a shot Dol Goldur in the distance, and then we see the opening title and move on to The Shire with Bilbo in front of his door.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 01-01-2008, 02:27 PM

Gollum appears once! How can you open a movie with someone that appears once? It just doesn't make sense!

Sauron the White · 01-01-2008, 02:59 PM

The Dwarves need their backstory to be explained so that the entire quest of the Dwarves makes some sense. Gollum needs to be right where he is in the story - no more , no less. Open in the Shire with Bilbo, go to Gandalf, then the arrival of Thorin and company, and let them reveal the history to Bilbo and the audience.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 01-01-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

The Dwarves need their backstory to be explained so that the entire quest of the Dwarves makes some sense. Gollum needs to be right where he is in the story - no more , no less. Open in the Shire with Bilbo, go to Gandalf, then the arrival of Thorin and company, and let them reveal the history to Bilbo and the audience.

Yes, that needs to be the opening scene. It needs to open in a nice sunny scene!

Meneltarmacil · 01-01-2008, 04:02 PM

No extra scene in which the Dwarves explain what's going on really needs to be included in my opinion. There's already one written in the book; filming that (and possibly including some flashback scenes to go along with Thorin's narration) should suffice. The story really ought to begin where Tolkien wanted it to.

A bigger problem, though, involves Bilbo's interaction with Gollum. The flashback in LOTR already contradicts what should happen, as Gollum realizes the Ring is gone at the same time that Bilbo finds it, not like in the book where he doesn't know it's gone until after he's done with the riddles.

Sauron the White · 01-01-2008, 05:27 PM

Mene... are you saying we should not see the Dwarves back history at all or that we should NOT open with that?

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 01-01-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

No extra scene in which the Dwarves explain what's going on really needs to be included in my opinion. There's already one written in the book; filming that (and possibly including some flashback scenes to go along with Thorin's narration) should suffice. The story really ought to begin where Tolkien wanted it to.

A bigger problem, though, involves Bilbo's interaction with Gollum. The flashback in LOTR already contradicts what should happen, as Gollum realizes the Ring is gone at the same time that Bilbo finds it, not like in the book where he doesn't know it's gone until after he's done with the riddles.

I never thought of Bilbo getting the Ring in the prologue like that! I must be missing something!

01-01-2008, 02:27 PM	#3
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	Gollum appears once! How can you open a movie with someone that appears once? It just doesn't make sense! __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead. Last edited by TheGreatElvenWarrior; 01-17-2008 at 09:52 PM.

01-01-2008, 04:02 PM	#6
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	No extra scene in which the Dwarves explain what's going on really needs to be included in my opinion. There's already one written in the book; filming that (and possibly including some flashback scenes to go along with Thorin's narration) should suffice. The story really ought to begin where Tolkien wanted it to. A bigger problem, though, involves Bilbo's interaction with Gollum. The flashback in LOTR already contradicts what should happen, as Gollum realizes the Ring is gone at the same time that Bilbo finds it, not like in the book where he doesn't know it's gone until after he's done with the riddles. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

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01-01-2008, 10:11 AM	#1
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	Starting the film like the book is probably not a favorable thing. The Unexpected Party is maybe the lightest part of the book, even when a lot of childishness is removed. A more dark prologue could win us the favor of the "ignorant part of the audience", so that we could then get away with making the Party more faithful to the book without disappointing some from the beginning on. I was going to suggest a similar thing as Nogrod just suggested: One very important scene is how Gollum loses the ring and I can't think of a way to insert it before the Riddles in the Dark part. It also cannot be omitted because that would leave a plot hole. Why not make it the opening scene then? It would be a dark beginning to see Gollum lose the ring while killing an Orc child, that's true, but it would be followed and balanced by the lighter Unexpected Party. Another benefit is that it would connect Hobbit and LotR with maybe the most recognisable character and the most recognisable item of both books. The audience is going to expect Gollum anyway, so leaving him as a surprise isn't going to work. One thing that I think should not be done is show Smaug in a prologue. That would be a too much of a spoiler. The dragon needs to remain a mystery that is only named and not shown until Bilbo finally meets him. The bit of dwarven history is very interesting and should definitely be included, but as others have already said, I don't see the necessity to do that in a prologue. We can find some quiet place later where Thorin or Balin can give Bilbo a small history lecture.

01-01-2008, 12:34 PM	#2
Nazgûl-king Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 104	I like the idea of starting with Gollum losing the ring, maybe they could do something like; start with Gollum rowing in his boat, then he sneaks up on land behind a goblin and starts choking it, and as he is choking it the ring escapes him, and we see the ring bouncing from the rocks and then landing on the ground. Then the scene could end with a shot Dol Goldur in the distance, and then we see the opening title and move on to The Shire with Bilbo in front of his door.

01-01-2008, 02:59 PM	#4
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	The Dwarves need their backstory to be explained so that the entire quest of the Dwarves makes some sense. Gollum needs to be right where he is in the story - no more , no less. Open in the Shire with Bilbo, go to Gandalf, then the arrival of Thorin and company, and let them reveal the history to Bilbo and the audience.

01-01-2008, 05:27 PM	#7
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Mene... are you saying we should not see the Dwarves back history at all or that we should NOT open with that?