Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

you see, my friend and i were arguing about who would win in a battle: the WK or Gandalf. and i looked it up and found this thread and decided to join this forum, and i'm an avid lotr reader and of course i absolutely loved the movies.

but that scene really made no sense to me, knowing that gandalf was a mair and got his power from the valor itself. i mean come on he came back from the dead like jesus after kicking some *** and came back and kicked some more.

and the witch king got his power from a already very weak sauron, so gandalf obviously wins.

i dont know how anyone could put up a decent argument on the WK's side.

[Groin Redbeard]

There's no question about it. The Witch King was a Wraith while Gandalf was a Miar. The nobody can kill a Mair unless you are a Mair yourself; or Valar.

Peter Jackson, I must admit, did a poor job at that scene. It would have been better if he would have stuck to the book with that sequence.

[Lord Gothmog]

While I agree with the view that Jackson 'got it wrong' and the Witch-King most certainly could not have broken the staff of Gandalf, it is not at all certain that Gandalf would have won in a direct confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul.

It is true that Gandalf was also Olorin the Maia but he was less powerful as Gandalf the Incarnate Istar. Gandalf the White was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey yet still he was Incarnate and Tolkien himself stated:-

Tolkien's Letters: 156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft)

By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.

And of The Witch-King vs Gandalf Tolkien has Gandalf saying:-

Return of the King: The Siege of Gondor.

'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come.

However, even this does not come anywhere near to the weakness that Jackson's Gandalf quite clearly displayed.

[The Saucepan Man]

Sorry, but could someone please explain to me where in the films it is said that Gandalf was a Maia, or indeed that Maiar even existed?

[obloquy]

I don't believe it is explicated. I have pointed out before (this thread or another, I dunno) that Gandalf's portrayal in the films may be inaccurate, but it's not incongruent with the mythos as adapted by the filmmakers.

I think Gandalf was more powerful and I think he could drive off the witch king but killing the witch king would have been a tall order even for Gandalf. They were close to evenly matched. Especially since the Witch King had ring power on his side.

At any rate the extended edition scene with Gandalf and the witch king is bogus and "it never happened" See the enhanced version on Youtube instead.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Sorry, but could someone please explain to me where in the films it is said that Gandalf was a Maia, or indeed that Maiar even existed?

''I have been sent back until my task is done''.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mansun

''I have been sent back until my task is done''.

That's more of a hint, though. It certainly sugggests something divine at work, but it doesn't actually say anything specific.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

That's more of a hint, though. It certainly sugggests something divine at work, but it doesn't actually say anything specific.

Hint or not, that particular scene in the Two Towers was one which was used to show the supernatural higher order of power that Gandalf was.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Lord Gothmog

While I agree with the view that Jackson 'got it wrong' and the Witch-King most certainly could not have broken the staff of Gandalf, it is not at all certain that Gandalf would have won in a direct confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul.

It is true that Gandalf was also Olorin the Maia but he was less powerful as Gandalf the Incarnate Istar. Gandalf the White was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey yet still he was Incarnate and Tolkien himself stated:-

Tolkien's Letters: 156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft)
By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.


And of The Witch-King vs Gandalf Tolkien has Gandalf saying:-

Return of the King: The Siege of Gondor.
'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come.

Well said. This is what I've been saying (or been trying to say!!!) over the past 3 YEARS this thread has been going. when will it ever end........????????!!!!!!!!

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Essex

Well said. This is what I've been saying (or been trying to say!!!) over the past 3 YEARS this thread has been going. when will it ever end........????????!!!!!!!!

It's not that you were ignored, it's that this information does not reveal what you think it reveals.

[Lord Gothmog]

Originally Posted by obloquy

It's not that you were ignored, it's that this information does not reveal what you think it reveals.

It reveals that the original characters on which the film characters were based were near equal in power. Gandalf was adapted to film as a much weaker character.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Lord Gothmog

It reveals that the original characters on which the film characters were based were near equal in power. Gandalf was adapted to film as a much weaker character.

No, it does not.

Essex's position has been, if I remember correctly, that the Witch-King could have overcome Gandalf by virtue of the "upset" phenomenon. This position inherently recognizes Gandalf's superiority while also highlighting his vulnerability. I disagree with Essex, but that does not mean he is entirely wrong.

You, however, are wrong. There is no way for the Witch-King to be "near equal" to Gandalf, who was a peer of Sauron himself, modesty notwithstanding. I will not repeat my arguments for this, but it should be fairly clear to anyone who takes the time to read the sources I have referenced in other posts, scattered across several threads.

Here is a point I have not brought up before, however:

And here in Rivendell there live still some of [Sauron's] chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.

This fact that Gandalf reveals applies not just to the Eldar, but also to Gandalf himself.

Finally, in anticipation of its resurrection, I will say this of the claim that the Witch-King was literally enhanced for the last book: It is a dubious theory, the source text for which comes from a letter not intended as canonical history (or indeed even to be included in the corpus), nor was it in response to a curious reader, and it is uncorroborated by other canonical texts. Additionally the letter is clearly discussing the literary decisions of the author for purposes of evaluating an adaptation. These facts provide enough doubt that the event can not be taken for granted and thus remains speculative.