COMPASS & LOTR comparison

[Groin Redbeard]

Lord of the Rings is based on a christian perspective were good truimphs over evil.
The Golden Compass was written by an atheist, and, in the books, evil truimphs over good.

The two trilogies are completely opposite of each other!

[Thenamir]

Opening Weekends (USA):

Fellowship of the Ring: $47 million
Two Towers: $62 million
Return of the King: $72 million

Narnia: $65 million

Golden Compass: $26 million

I couldn't be happier...well, I might have been happier had GC's numbers been lower...

All figures taken from www.boxofficemojo.com

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

Opening Weekends (USA):

Fellowship of the Ring: $47 million
Two Towers: $62 million
Return of the King: $72 million

Narnia: $65 million

Golden Compass: $26 million

I couldn't be happier...well, I might have been happier had GC's numbers been lower...

All figures taken from www.boxofficemojo.com

Does boxofficemojo say how many theatres the movies opened in? I don't know about this one, Compass or FotR et al, but I know that movie revenues can often depend on the number of cinemas showing the movie. For instance, I find it fascinating that apparently Beowulf took in more in the box office in Canada than in the US (if I read the stats right in a local newspaper) and I really wonder what's behind that and I know that some movies are specifically limited in the number of their opening appearances.

[Sauron the White]

Films such as LOTR, NARNIA or COMPASS usually open very wide - a couple of thousand theaters. Art films have much higher per screen revenues when you consider that a film like the latest biopic on Bob Dylan might open in a 3 million person metropolis in one theater. In the end, per screen figures matter little compared to gross revenues.

[davem]

Found this interview with Pullman interesting : http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1439673.

Certainly calls into question Pullman's 'militant athiesm' - he states he's perfectly happy for the interviewer to see 'Dust' in the novel as the divine - but more interesting is where talks about 'mutual interdependence' of humans & Dust, - its a mysterious force encompassing human thought, imagination, kindness, love, intellectual curiosity, & that our duty is to introduce more Dust into the world - that without Dust we will dwindle away, & without us Dust will dwindle away.

The reason I found it interesting is that it is almost exactly what Tolkien says about Faery in the Smith Essay:

It is plainly shown that Faery is a vast world in its own right, that does not depend for its existence upon Men, and which is not primarily nor indeed principally concerned with Men. The relationship must therefore be one of love: the Elven Folk, the chief and ruling inhabitants of Faery, have an ultimate kinship with Men and have a permanent love for them in general. Though they are not bound by any moral obligation to assist Men, and do not need their help (except in human affairs), they do from time to time try to assist them. avert evil from them and have relations with them, especially through certain men and women whom they find suitable. They, the Elvenfolk, are thus 'beneficent' with regard to Men, and are not wholly alien, though many things and creatures in Faery itself are alien to Men and even actively hostile. Their good will is seen mainly in attempting to keep or restore relationships betWeen the two worlds, since the Elves (and still some Men) realize that this love of Faery is essential to the full and proper human development. The love of Faery is the love of love: a relationship towards all things. animate and inanimate, which includes love and respect, and removes or modifies e spirit of possession and domination. Without it even plain 'Utility' will in fact become less useful; or will turn to ruthlessness and lead only to mere power, ultimately destructive. The Apprentice relation in the tale is thus interesting. Men in a large part of their activities are or should be in an apprentice status as regards the Elven folk. In an attempt to rescue Wootton from its decline, the Elves reverse the situation, and the King of faery himself Cmes and serves as an apprentice in the village...

But Faery is not religious. It is fairly evident that it is not Heaven or Paradise. Certainly its inhabitants, Elves, are not angels or emlssares of God (direct). The tale does not deal with religion itself. The Elves are not busy with a plan to reawake religious devotion in Wootton. The Cooking allegory would not be suitable to any such import. Faery represents at its weakest a breaking out (at least in mind) from the iron ring of the familiar, stilI more from the adamantine ring of belief that it is known, possessed, controlled, and so (ultimately) all that is worth being considered - a constant awareness of a world beyond these rings. More strongly it represents love: that is, a love and respect for all things, 'inanimate' and 'animate', an unposessing love of them as 'other'. This 'love' will produce both ruth and delight. Things seen in its light will be respected, and they will also appear delightful, beautiful, wonderful - even glorious.

[Lalwendë]

Pullman isn't a 'militant atheist' - it's a ridiculous thing to attach to the man, nor is he at the helm of some sinister recruitment campaign to secularism. His books simply (complexly?) put an alternative view that the path to wonder and joy can also be found outside of religion. And it can. Don't we all get exactly that from reading Tolkien, having a walk in the woods or watching kids smile?

One of the 'points' to Lyra is that she is an ''Eve" figure, one of the symbols of the Bible which Pullman finds most interesting as it is Eve who discovers Learning and Knowledge and yet she is thrown out of Paradise for having a mind. Lyra defies Authority in seeking to find out what this Dust business is all about and she too acts like Eve - but in Pullman's case, he has written about what would happen if this 'Eve' did not get punished. And what happens? Some quite beautiful things, actually

In HDM what happens to people who have had their daemons forcibly severed? They become hollow, and in the case of children, they even die - they clearly need the daemon, it being representative of something within us, either soul or imagination, whichever you like. This is done in an attempt to stop Dust settling on them as they begin to become young adults. The Dust is seen as 'bad', as 'sin', but it turns out not to be like that at all - we don't get told what it is exactly, but we have a good idea that it's something essential to human life, something which separates conscious (self-conscious?) beings from animals. It's also fading from the Universe/s.

Lyra, in defying Authority, and in being brave and learning things, discovers all of this and learns how Story is one of the few things we have - that when we die what is left but our Story.

All of this is incredibly similar to Tolkien's way of thinking, that to attempt to trap and control the imagination and to suppress it is a terrible thing. Lyra discovers the limitless possibilities of other worlds, learns not to tell lies and be true to her own Story and most of all to see Learning as important. This is also what Tolkien tells us, that liars and cheats do not win out, that we must learn for ourselves what is right and wrong (who's there out in the wilds telling Frodo and Sam what to do? Nobody, they must decide for themselves), and to be brave.

I think it's a sad thing if people refuse to read this wonderful book by Pullman purely because a man tells them not to. Terribly sad...

I suppose one of the problems is one it shares with Lord of the Rings - it's hard to tell "what it's about" and people feel they must fix a 'meaning' on it all. After all, in this cost conscious modern society every large effort made must have some kind of 'pay-off', mustn't it? And that's probably why lengthy shaggy dog stories like Tristram Shandy aren't popular these days - all our reading must have some kind of 'purpose' - pur-lease.... Well, meanings are there to be found if you so wish, but it is just a good story, just like the equally daunting Lord of the Rings.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem from Tolkien's Smith essay

It is plainly shown that Faery is a vast world in its own right, that does not depend for its existence upon Men, and which is not primarily nor indeed principally concerned with Men. The relationship must therefore be one of love: the Elven Folk, the chief and ruling inhabitants of Faery, have an ultimate kinship with Men and have a permanent love for them in general. Though they are not bound by any moral obligation to assist Men, and do not need their help (except in human affairs), they do from time to time try to assist them. avert evil from them and have relations with them, especially through certain men and women whom they find suitable. They, the Elvenfolk, are thus 'beneficent' with regard to Men, and are not wholly alien, though many things and creatures in Faery itself are alien to Men and even actively hostile. Their good will is seen mainly in attempting to keep or restore relationships betWeen the two worlds, since the Elves (and still some Men) realize that this love of Faery is essential to the full and proper human development. The love of Faery is the love of love: a relationship towards all things. animate and inanimate, which includes love and respect, and removes or modifies e spirit of possession and domination. Without it even plain 'Utility' will in fact become less useful; or will turn to ruthlessness and lead only to mere power, ultimately destructive. The Apprentice relation in the tale is thus interesting. Men in a large part of their activities are or should be in an apprentice status as regards the Elven folk. In an attempt to rescue Wootton from its decline, the Elves reverse the situation, and the King of faery himself Cmes and serves as an apprentice in the village...

But Faery is not religious. It is fairly evident that it is not Heaven or Paradise. Certainly its inhabitants, Elves, are not angels or emlssares of God (direct). The tale does not deal with religion itself. The Elves are not busy with a plan to reawake religious devotion in Wootton. The Cooking allegory would not be suitable to any such import. Faery represents at its weakest a breaking out (at least in mind) from the iron ring of the familiar, stilI more from the adamantine ring of belief that it is known, possessed, controlled, and so (ultimately) all that is worth being considered - a constant awareness of a world beyond these rings. More strongly it represents love: that is, a love and respect for all things, 'inanimate' and 'animate', an unposessing love of them as 'other'. This 'love' will produce both ruth and delight. Things seen in its light will be respected, and they will also appear delightful, beautiful, wonderful - even glorious.

This is going to stray a wee bit off toipc, but that quotation from Tolkien's Smith essay is too fascinating to let my thoughts stray off--won't be so vein as to say I want to catch the Dust before it scatters.

The idea that Fairie is Love and that the elves are part of that love is intriguing, but does this attribute really adequately explain or suit the elves as we know them in The Silm? I hardly think it does, with their stiff necked arrogance and honour and oath-dependency.

What I think the Smith essay shows most clearly though is how Tolkien's ideas underwent change, development. I would use the word progress but I know how much the man himself distrusted that word. Tolkien was working through ideas, trying to find a core theme in all his work beyond some of the culturally-determined qualities which mark their debt to the northern warrior epic and mythology in general and that is what I think Pullman is also doing. Pullman is moving away/beyond the authoritarian model of human society/culture and that includes authoritarian ideas of divinity as imposed domination and punishment for deviance and forceful control. They might come to the topic from initially different perspectives--Augustinian versus Miltonic--but both are attempting to capture in a gloriously entertaining and compelling story hopeful possibilities for humanity, life, and the universe.

Really, I think it's kind of sad to wish ill of Pullman and Compass on some preconceived notion of hierarchy that one has to be better than the other, that Tolkien alone got things right where others fail, that somehow Tolkien's star will shine the brighter if the Pullman movies fail to be as successful as the LotR movies.

[davem]

In the Essay Tolkien also states:

Faery might be said indeed to represent Imagination (without definition because taking in all the definitions of this word): aesthetic: exploratory and receptive; and artistic; inventive, dynamic, (sub)creative. This compound - of awareness of a limitless world outside our domestic parish; a love (in ruth and admiration) for the things in it; and a desire for wonder, marvels, both perceived and conceived - this 'Faery' is as necessary for the health and complete functioning of the Human as is sunlight for physical life: sunlight as distinguished from the soil, say, though it in fact permeates and modifies even that.

&

But in this tale Forest and Tree remain dominant symbols. They occur in three of the four 'remembered' and recorded experiences of the Smith — before his leave-taking of the Queen. They do not occur in the first, because it is at that point that he discovers that Faery is 'limitless' and is mainly involved in vast regions and events that do not concern Men and are impenetrable by them. ..

It is probable that the world of Faery could not exist* without our world, and is affected by the events in it — the reverse being also true. The 'health' of both is affected by state of the other. Men have not the power to assist the Elvenfolk in the ordering and defence of their realm; but the Elves have the power (subject to finding co-operation from within) to assist in the protection of our world, especially in the attempt to re-direct Men when their development tends to the defacing or destruction of their world. The Elves may thus have also an enlightened self-interest in human affairs. ..

The last paragraph in particular seems to echo Pullman's statements on Dust & the interdependence of it & us. Yet what's odd is that Pullman is quite happy for his interviewer to see Dust as Divine, but Tolkien is at pains to stress the difference between Faery & Paradise:

But Faery is not religious. It is fairly evident that it is not Heaven or Paradise. Certainly its inhabitants, Elves, are not angels or emlssares of God (direct). The tale does not deal with religion itself. The Elves are not busy with a plan to reawake religious devotion in Wootton. The Cooking allegory would not be suitable to any such import. Faery represents at its weakest a breaking out (at least in mind) from the iron ring of the familiar, stilI more from the adamantine ring of belief that it is known, possessed, controlled, and so (ultimately) all that is worth being considered - a constant awareness of a world beyond these rings. More strongly it represents love: that is, a love and respect for all things, 'inanimate' and 'animate', an unposessing love of them as 'other'. This 'love' will produce both ruth and delight. Things seen in its light will be respected, and they will also appear delightful, beautiful, wonderful - even glorious.

SoWM, according to Tolkien, 'does not deal with religion itself' - but the concern of HDM is religion. One could argue (from the perspective of the interviewer) that Dust is truly 'God', the 'Divine', & that the Magisterium has created & supported a false belief & so encouraging the creation of Dust is a 'Holy' work, but for Tolkien, while Faery & our world are dependent on each other (but note, he also states clearly that Faery is not dependent on Men), Heaven/Paradise exists as a True third state above the two.

Another difference is that Pullman refers to Dust as a metaphor or visual image, whereas for Tolkien Faery is a place, in which living creatures live, move & have their being. Yet it seems that the concern of both writers is communicating the idea of some kind of immanent 'reality' which exists alongside/within the material universe, that the two are mutually dependent & cannot exist one without the other - & what's really interesting is that both use terms like love & imagination to describe this other 'reality'.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Lord of the Rings is based on a christian perspective were good truimphs over evil.
The Golden Compass was written by an atheist, and, in the books, evil truimphs over good.

The two trilogies are completely opposite of each other!

Wow...feightin' talk

I haven't seen the Golden Compass yet (and nor am likely to until it's out on DVD, sadly) but I have seen the first five minutes and as many snips as I can online and I was impressed by the look of the piece. However I have also heard that the narrative has been mucked about with a little too much.

How the film can be offensive to anyone I can't grasp as the Magisterium can at worst only be an allegory of organised religion in general (and isn't even based on Catholicism but on Calvinism) and I understand even this has been downplayed. And organised religions can indeed be bad news just as politics can be bad news - Pullman's allowed to say that if he likes. There's a very interesting interview on BBC Radio Oxford* with the guy doing the whole protest thing and he failed to answer the thorny question of why if TGC is 'offensive' to Christians because it's somehow underhandedly tempting them towards Atheism and therefore should be banned, is a film of Narnia OK?

Wonder what sort of a froth they're in on Lewis forums? Meh.

Originally Posted by StW

If you could make a list of the first few major responsibilities a filmmaker has, would a question such as this make that short list? As such, I think it is one of those esoteric exercises which has very little to do with the real task before a filmmaker.

You know, I'm inclined to think of late that there is some merit in film-makers being either 'economical with the truth' or taking liberties with precious literature. Why? In the first example the Tudors has just finished on the BBC and even though Henry VIII was rather too young and virile amongst other yawning historical inaccuracies it didn't matter because it was right rockin' viewing (very much not for kids, heh). In the second example Cranford is also drawing to an end - though this adaptation is about as close to the actual novel as chalk is to cheese - it's much better!

*http://www.bbc.co.uk/oxford/content/..._compass.shtml

On one of these links you'll also find a quite disrespectful anecdote about when Pullman had dinner with Tolkien. I found it funny anyway, you can't be preciousss all the time.

[Thenamir]

There's a very interesting interview on BBC Radio Oxford* with the guy doing the whole protest thing and he failed to answer the thorny question of why if TGC is 'offensive' to Christians because it's somehow underhandedly tempting them towards Atheism and therefore should be banned, is a film of Narnia OK?

Let there be no banning of movies on the basis of philosophical disagreement. By all means, make Pullman movies, Michael Moore movies, whatever floats the boat of the persons putting up the production dollars. Let them compete in the open marketplace. That was the point of my prior post with the box-office numbers. <cackles with barely-suppressed laughter and runs away...>

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

Let there be no banning of movies on the basis of philosophical disagreement. By all means, make Pullman movies, Michael Moore movies, whatever floats the boat of the persons putting up the production dollars. Let them compete in the open marketplace. That was the point of my prior post with the box-office numbers. <cackles with barely-suppressed laughter and runs away...>

Actually, I was beginning to wonder if it was more to do with the 'bottom' falling out of the Fantasy Film Market, a kinds 'credit crunch' on Swords 'n' Sorcery? After all, the whole trend began with the Daddy of 'em all and is now attempting to film the unfilmable on an increasing basis. I have a sci-fi mag floating around somewhere (appropriate, for a sci-fi mag, what?) which lists all the fantasy films currently in talks or production including some very poor prospects indeed.

Plus there's the Shrek-like Enchanted out this week so 'the kids' might much prefer that.

From what I've heard GC fails to get the story across properly, and Northern Lights is the 'easiest' of the trilogy (such as any of them can be said to be 'easy') to understand so I dread to think how they'd even begin to film the second and third books - especially as one of them is missing a major protagonist for about a third of the story! And after the brou-ha-ha over The Two Towers I think too much 'meddling' can ruin a narrative...

[Thenamir]

there's the Shrek-like Enchanted out this week so 'the kids' might much prefer that.

Speakin' of feightin' words...

My wife and I are, shall we say, unsophisticated in our moviegoing tastes -- at least, that's what our kids say. They'd rather see Beowulf and The Invisible. We would rather see Ratatouille or Transformers. I took my wife to see Enchanted, and it was wonderful! I often lament the dearth of movies like The Music Man, Mary Poppins, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, movies with real music (not pop-chart soundtracks) and elaborate dance numbers (not beat-boxing breaks). Enchanted is not quite like those movies, but there was enough of what I miss in the good movies-of-old to recommend it highly. That is, if you've not been ruined by movies like Dewey Cox, Talladega Nights, and Superbad...

And the fantasy movie genre has not yet begun to complete its course. Prince Caspian will be out in May, and the buzz on that one is quite good.

[Lalwendë]

I want to see Enchanted too, but like all other films I won't be seeing it for many months...I may have to make friends with someone who knows someone who knows a man in the pub who can get naughty copies of new films or something at this rate

I'm a bit worried that they have spent so long making the next Narnia film that all the hype will have died away for it. The biggest fans of films like that are young and fickle, it's more the grown-up nerds who can and will wait for a sequel for a couple of years, so I'm afraid Prince Caspian won't be so much of a hit either. They ought to have kept up with the punishing yearly schedule the Potter films are keeping to...I hope it does come out though because I much preferred the film of Narnia...oooh, controversial...

[Thenamir]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I much preferred the film of Narnia...oooh, controversial...

<whispers "You're not alone," and disappears like an ephemeral smoke...>