Finduilas and the Doom of Turin

[Mithadan]

Alas, my thread is being hijacked onto a tangent and I will be a willing part of it, paticularly because the tangent relates to the initial subject. I do want to hear what people have to say regarding the initial topic: how could saving Finduilas avert Turin's doom? Son of Numenor comes up with an interesting idea that I will respond to after giving others a chance to put in their two pence.

Aiwendil, I am tempted to accuse you of raising a question that you know the answer to. CoH and the Silmarillion both state that Turin did not return Finduilas' love. Unfinished Tales offers no help as the section of Narn i hin Hurin that would have addressed this issue is not included; the text defers to the published Silmarillion. Confident that what was published in the Silmarillion would be confirmed in earlier versions, I went directly to Shaping Middle Earth and found that Turin loved Finduilas but feared entangling her in his doom. Later versions of the Tale addressed in The War of the Jewels are substantially similar to the earlier versions, Turin loves Finduilas but fears his love. Nor do the commentaries in War of the Jewels express any regret regarding CT's final treatment of the subject in the Silmarillion as he sometimes does. I have not checked all other commentaries.

So the NEW issue becomes, where did the conception of these events found in the Silmarillion and CoH come from? Where is the source material for this version of the story? Does it come from Tokien in some unpublished text or is it CT's own view of where his father would eventually come out on this issue?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Mithadan, perhaps you overlooked the fragments of "Turin in Nargothrond" which were published in UT as part of the appendices to the Narn, where the Turin/Gwindor/Finduilas triangle is covered at some length (pp. 155-159). There we find

...but against her will her love for Turin grew day by day....yet she knew he had no love of the kind she wished. His heart and mind were elsewhere

and so on; all repeated essentially verbatim in CoH. This is a slight modification of the story in the Grey Annals from a few years before, where Turin indeed loved Finduilas, but refused to 'taint' her (or betray Gwindor).

More to the specific point of Gwindor's foresight and the Doom: in UT p. 159 CT says "of the Battle of Tumhalad and the sack of Nargothrond there is no other account," sc. than that used in the Silmarillion, which in fact is that of the Grey Annals (XI. 85), where Gwindor's prophecy appears, and so that text, the published Silmarillion, and the CoH are close to identical.

(with one puzzling exception: the paragraph which appears at the bottom of CoH p. 176, repeating the Silmarillion, does not have any antecedent I can identify ["Then the warriors of Nargothrond went forth, and tall and terrible on that day looked Turin...."])

[Mithadan]

You are correct, William. I did overlook that discussion of what CT terms a somewhat fragmentary text but which reads rather well. So now we know where the Silmarillion version of the tale, that Turin did not love Finduilas, derives from. But this underscores the original question, why would rescuing Finduilas have averted Turin's doom? This statement was a dying declaration of Gwindor and smacks of foresight. What could Gwindor have foreseen? Certainly not that Turin would wed Finduilas and as a result somehow escape Morgoth's curse. It is appears clear that this would not have occurred, if we accept what appears in UT as the final version of this part of the tale. Could it be as simple as Son of Numenor suggests?

[Aiwendil]

Sorry if I've led this discussion a bit off-topic, but I do think, as Mithadan says, that the issue of Turin's love for Finduilas is quite important to the main question he raised.

I'm afraid that my memory led me awry earlier; the quote I was thinking of was not in the UT 'Narn' but in GA.

But I am still not convinced that in the UT version, Turin does not love Finduilas. I've just re-read the relavant 'Narn' fragments and I do not find a clear statement to this effect. Yes, Finduilas herself does claim that "Túrin loves me not; nor will," but we don't necessarily know that she is correct (even if Gwindor seems to agree). It seems to me that in this fragmentary version of the account of Turin in Nargothrond, the relationship among Gwindor, Finduilas, and Turin has become quite nuanced and rather complex. I don't think that any of the three is quite able to see the entire truth of the situation, and certainly none can be considered an objective reporter of the facts. Nonetheless, reading this version in isolation, one certainly does find the element of Turin's love for Finduilas significantly downplayed, if (perhaps) not completely excised. Still, it must be remembered that this version is, after all, fragmentary. It's difficult to guess whether, or how, the situation would have been cast in a different light had Tolkien completed this section. (Note also the references to Finduilas in the later parts of the 'Narn', particularly Turin's reaction on learning of her death; of course, these portions were written earlier and are more closely associated with GA).

But let's consider how this relates to Mithadan's original question. Gwindor's warning to Turin appears in GA but not in the 'Narn'; the Battle of Tumhalad was not reached in that text. Now, Tolkien might or might not have included it had he finished the 'Narn'; we cannot say. But it seems to me that as long as we are evaluating the import of Gwindor's words, we must evaluate them within the context of the texts in which they appear. In GA (and earlier), it certainly does make perfect sense to suppose that Turin would have wedded Finduilas if he had saved her.

[Guinevere]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

. In GA (and earlier), it certainly does make perfect sense to suppose that Turin would have wedded Finduilas if he had saved her.

I think so too. Much depends on the definition of "love".
Túrin certainly is very fond of Finduilas, I think he does love her, but daren't desire her - he is too much in awe of her; ("He had no love of the kind she wished")
Finduilas says in the fragment in the U.T.Narn:

....but still pity can ever pierce his heart, and he will never deny it. But he does not pity me. He holds me in awe, as were I both his mother and a queen.

Now if, after the sack of Nargothrond, Turin had managed to rescue Finduilas from the orcs, couldn't that have changed things between them, and his feelings for her?
Gwindor's flash of "foresight" in his dying hour had probably not been explicit. But it is rather noble of him to give this warning and commit Finduilas to his rival.

However, all this is speculation, and I agree with Son of Numenor's conclusion:

Originally posted by Son of Numenor
"I think that the Finduilas strand is a 'What if...?' which Tolkien left vague intentionally - another layer of the misty veil surrounding the predestined fall of his tragic hero."

[Numenorean]

Great thread and posts. Maybe the core of this question - due in no small part to the magical subtlety of Tolkiens words – depends entirely on the beliefs of the reader, or as Guinevere states:

Much depends on the definition of "love".

Like others, I have always got the feeling that Túrin would indeed have reciprocated Finduilas’ love – of the kind she wished it to be - had it not been for his honour bound friendship with Gwindor. To me it seems like another fey strand of the curse that haunts Túrins every turn: he is brought to the refuge sanctuary of Nargothrond (and Finduilas) by the only one of that realm whom he owes his life to, Gwindor, who just happens to also be the one Elf that was romantically involved with Finduilas in times past. The seeds of a fragile and doomed triangle between the three are sown from the beginning, masterfully shrouded in Tolkiens gift for pathos.
For me, Aiwendil rightly says that none...

of the three is quite able to see the entire truth of the situation

- Túrin least of all it seems, as he says of himself, with the truth seeing eyes of his imminent death near the end of CoH: “For see, I am blind! Did you not know? Blind, blind, groping since childhood in a dark mist of Morgoth”.

Over in the excellent Translations from the Elvish – Narn i Chîn Húrin thread http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=522376 by Findegil, I saw these wonderfully poignant lines from the Lay that (to me) echo the subtleties and unspoken passion of the situation:

…of Túrins Sorrows at this time it is told in the Lay:

From woe unhealed __ the wounded heart
of Túrin the tall __ was turned to her.
...
the glory of her eyes __ that gleamed with fires
of secret thought __ in silent deeps.

This also complements what Son of Númenor wrote here:

the Finduilas strand is a 'What if...?' which Tolkien left vague intentionally - another layer of the misty veil surrounding the predestined fall of his tragic hero

As to how could saving Finduilas avert Túrins doom, I’m in agreement with Aiwendil & Guinivere that:

it certainly does make perfect sense to suppose that Túrin would have wedded Finduilas if he had saved her.

Thus altering the fateful path of doom that led him to Niënor/Níniel and his bitter end.

Guinivere:

Gwindor's flash of "foresight" in his dying hour had probably not been explicit. But it is rather noble of him to give this warning and commit Finduilas to his rival.

If only Gwindor had been as noble and upfront to Túrin regarding Finduilas prior to that dark day, things might have transpired rather differently. Maybe such speculation only begs another unanswerable question, namely; was Love the only fate strong enough to defeat or offset the Curse of Morgoth and Túrins doom?

[Mithadan]

I agree with everyone that this topic calls for rank speculation, on the order of what would have happened if Caeser had not been assassinated or if Napoleon had prevailed at Waterloo. We have no way of knowing what Tolkien was considering when Gwindor suggested that Turin's doom could be avoided if he rescued Finduilas. Nonetheless, I am impressed at the thoughtful suggestions posted here, and add my own comments.

First, in order to avert his doom (note that the word used was doom and not curse; there could be a slight significance there), I do not feel that Turin would have needed to wed Finduilas. It would have been sufficient for him to rescue her. Turin would not have fallen under Glaurung's binding spell, he would not have gone to Dor Lomin and would not have slain Brodda, he would not have come to Brethil and would not have stumbled upon Nienor (who would not have needed to ride with her mother to Nargothrond because Turin was not trapped there). Presumably, Turin would have needed to bring Finduilas to some safe haven whether he wedded her or not, probably Doriath. There he would have been reunited with Morwen and Nienor and his doom is unravelled. Yet he and his family would remain cursed and, more importantly, what about Glaurung? Another line of speculation results. Glaurung and a great army are sent against Doriath and Melian, etc., etc...

Turin's tale is a tragedy. He is a great hero caught up in events beyond his control and beyond his depth. He is cursed. Notwithstanding his curse, he manages to do great things, even though much of what he does seems to turn ill. A great part of the story is his relationship with Glaurung and the slaying of the worm. I do not think that Tolkien would suggest that this might not occur, that Turin's "doom" would not find him if he did or refrained from doing anything. Gwindor's prophecy is a late addition to Turin's tale. I do not think that it does anything for the story; the tale is equally tragic if Turin ignores Gwindor's dying wish that he rescue Finduilas without linking the rescue to an undoing of his curse or doom. To the contrary, to suggest that a simple "good deed" could contravene Morgoth's curse is a bit too blithe a solution. And what of the fact that even Turin's attempts to do good are turned awry by the curse? The idea that rescuing Finduilas would avert Turin's doom simply does not fit.

If Tolkien had ever assembled the "final draft" of Narn i Hin Hurin, I suggest that Gwindor's prophecy would not have been included; the earlier iteration of his dying words would have been used. Tolkien was simply too careful an author to let something slip in that seems to run contrary to the themes of that tale. I used the word "jarring" in my initial post. The use of that word was intentional. Gwindor's prophecy is jarring; it doesn't fit.