Why Can't Movies Be Like Books?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

NO. My position is this. JRRT wrote the LOTR with Boromir being one of the least successful characters of the Fellowship. Jackson improved upon the character of Boromir making him a character which worked much better on screen than he did in the book.

No, Jackson completely re-wrote the character.

Where do I get this from? The posted observations of many people over the last several years in this forum, TORN, B-77 and others.

Clear on that?

Many people? Well, it must be true then.

[Sauron the White]

Your opinion is worthwhile and I respect that. However..... (here comes the zinger
) ... after a while it reminds me of that old story about the proud mother watching her son play tuba in a marching band during a town parade. the boy was clearly marching with his footing opposite every other member of the band. Without skipping a beat the proud mother proclaimed "everybody is out of step but Johnny".

[Folwren]

My dear fellow...your are exagerating quite a bit. Davem's opinion is not the only one like that out there.

I believe that Tolkien meant Boromir to be a very complex character and I believe that he succeeded. I have never read any other book wherein two readers have opposite opinions about the same character. I read the LotR, wept at Borommir's death, and thought he made an honorable character in the end. I then talked to my best friend who was reading the book at the same time and found that she did not like Boromir at all and that she in fact disliked him. The opinion on Boromir varies from person to person. Many people dislike him. Many others like him. We're all reading the same book. We're all reading the same words. And yet Tolkien has created such a deep, complex character that some readers can latch onto him and like him, and others latch onto his other side - his worse side.

I don't have longer to make this post flow more. So sorry.

-- Folwren

[Sauron the White]

from Folwren

My dear fellow...your are exagerating quite a bit. Davem's opinion is not the only one like that out there.

You are 100% right. Davem is not alone. And it seems the lions share of his compatriots are right here. I have frequented many Tolkien sites which share both book and film fans. I must say, with all due respect, that this particular site seems to have a gross imbalance of those who have the strongest negative opinions about the films and the most "bowing before the altar" attitudes toward the books. That is simply my observation after being here several months and several years on other sites.

When we compare the opinion against the film that is voiced here and among Tolkien literary circles, and compare it with the hundreds of millions who purchased tickets to see the film, the numbers speak for themselves.

Fowren, I do think you have an excellent point about the complexity of Boromir in the book. I respect that. I do honestly feel that there are some here who have an almost religious attitude towards the writings of JRRT and can find no fault, or at least publicly to finding no fault with his creations. They defend nearly everything with the zeal of a True Believer. It seems to have become far less a contest of reason than it does a test of ones faith.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I have frequented many Tolkien sites which share both book and film fans. I must say, with all due respect, that this particular site seems to have a gross imbalance of those who have the strongest negative opinions about the films and the most "bowing before the altar" attitudes toward the books. That is simply my observation after being here several months and several years on other sites.

Most people on this site have a greater interest in the literature Tolkien produced over the course of his long life, & a desire to understand it, than they have in three movies - however many trillions of dollars they may have made (I think in an earlier post you gave it as $1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000 per second since their release) or however many Oscars, Golden Globes, Baftas, Palm d'Or's Golden Oscars, Palm Globes, Boscars, Globetas, Palm Pilots, PDA's, Golden Deliciouses or I-pods they may have won..... This has nothing to do with 'bowing before the altar' of the books. Personally, I thought bits of the movies were fine but in the main they were grossly simplified & over stuffed with SFX which may have worked fine on a first viewing but increasingly dull thereafter.

When we compare the opinion against the film that is voiced here and among Tolkien literary circles, and compare it with the hundreds of millions who purchased tickets to see the film, the numbers speak for themselves.

I don't think anyone here has argued that the movies weren't popular. I've only ever argued that I think they're dull &, unlike the book, which I've read about 15 times & regularly return to with joy, I simply can't face another viewing of the movies.

I do honestly feel that there are some here who have an almost religious attitude towards the writings of JRRT and can find no fault, or at least publicly to finding no fault with his creations. They defend nearly everything with the zeal of a True Believer. It seems to have become far less a contest of reason than it does a test of ones faith.

No, sorry, some of us love the books but just don't care for the movies - its that simple, & I really don't know why you've decided to embark on this assault against those who don't share your opinion of the movies. The books came first for most of us, & we prefer them. Where the movies fail to come up to the standard of the books, or where they alter the story, we get either irritated or bored. It seems to me that if anyone is 'worshipping at an altar' here its yourself at the altar of three popular, but (in my opinion quite average) movies.

[Sauron the White]

No assault on you or anyone else is intended. I do not mean to attack anyone personally or claim they are bad people.

My comments are spurred by simple observation. To be brutally honest here, I was knocked over more by one thing I read here than anything else. I noticed that many people whose opinions on the JRRT books I respect, adopted a nearly subservient position regarding the publishing fraud that is THE CHILDREN OF HURIN. When I saw the tag line offered by the publishers - that it was the first new Tolkien novel in thirty years - I said to myself "self - people who know are going to rip that slogan to shreds because it is a lie. They have had that story on their shelves in other volumes for some time now."

Boy was I wrong. Nearly everyone was willing to look the other way as the Emperor paraded down the avenue with no clothes at all. In fact, some even winked and smiled about it. What I found out was that since it was authorized by the Tolkien Estate, it had the impramatur of Holy Writ and thus would never be challenged by those who I thought had some scruples and integrity. And as I have said many times in many posts on many subjects, I see the same people try to destroy the movies over and over and over again but they not dare raise so much as a whimper about anything associated with the source material, its author, the Estate or its doings.

That totally altered my thinking. I really do see some people bowing before that altar of Tolkien. Call it some weird type of JRRT political correctness for the literary crowd, but it is alive and well.

Maybe its my own personality that is at fault. I am by nature a contrarian who sits when asked to stand. If I were in a crowd of JRRT haters I would defend his writings to the death. So here its natural for me to be the bad guy. Sorry but thats just my natural inclination.

Davem, no attack on you or others is intended. Just observations and commentary on opinions.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Do you really think people go to the movies to see half an hour of people talking? No, they go to see drama, action and emotion.

I take it you've never seen The Wannsee Conference? An hour and a half or more of absolutely gripping (and horrifying) drama- and it's nothing more than the verbatim recitation of the minutes of a real-life committee meeting.

One could also throw in My Dinner With Andre and many more which belie the video-game mentality that you gotta put 'action' on screen or else bore the audience.

**********

Who said Gothmog was an Orc? In fact he was explicitly *not* an Orc: "It was no brigand nor Orc-chieftain who commanded...."

Still, objections on this sort of geek-level are trivial compared to the fact that PJ Just Doesn't Get Tolkien: not his themes, his style, his moral vision, his sense of language, none of it. Just monsters and fights. This is a guy who calls the Eorlingas the "Rohans," after all, and thinks "Rohirrim" applies only to the king's cavalry. (If you want to get truly geekish, then PJ should be taken to task for having Theoden et al refer to their country as "Rohan", which in the book they never do- it is, after all, a Sindarin name coined in Gondor. How could anyone so deaf to language think they were qualified to adapt Tolkien? Misologists, Tolkien would call them. Hiring David Salo to concoct some snatches of pseudo-Elvish (while omitting all of Tolkien's own) doesn't cut it).


**********

In Annatar's long regurgitation of the excuses and self-justifications PJ and his accomplices offered up on the DVD's, he claims it was 'necessary' to rewrite Faramir (actually to create a new character with the same name) because the real Farmair's was "flat" and had to become an "obstacle" for Frodo- which goes back to the repeated reference by JBW to "story arcs." - If you buy this tripe, I suggest you read Shippey's Road to Middle-earth in its 2004 edition, where good Prof. Tom takes to task these paint-by-numbers approaches to screenwriting.

*******************


Shelob/Helm's Deep and the relative calendars- Only because PJ was dwetermined to make Helm's Deep the Bam! Zowie! climax of his movie, puffing it up beyond its proper place in the narrative; and, at any rate, Shelob's Lair took place *before* the Pelennor Fields, not simultaneously.


Would it not perhaps have been a great exercise in 'experimental cinema' (in the hands of a much more innovative director than Jackson) to present the narrative just as Tolkien did, without intercutting Books III & IV, V & VI?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I noticed that many people whose opinions on the JRRT books I respect, adopted a nearly subservient position regarding the publishing fraud that is THE CHILDREN OF HURIN. When I saw the tag line offered by the publishers - that it was the first new Tolkien novel in thirty years - I said to myself "self - people who know are going to rip that slogan to shreds because it is a lie. They have had that story on their shelves in other volumes for some time now."

CoH. I bought The Sil in '77 & UT in '81 on the day it was published. Right from the moment I finished the Narn in UT I felt that it should have been published as a stand alone work, rather than as CT had chosen to do - the bulk of the tale in UT but with chunk missed out (the reader is referred back to The Sil to read the missing section.

I, & most other Tolkien fans, knew exactly what we would be getting with CoH, not least because many of us have both The Sil, UT & HoM-e. So, I've read the story before (ok, there are a few very slight differences), but that's not the point. We now have one of Tolkien's greatest tales available in a single volume so that if we want to read it we don't have to pile up 3 or 4 volumes & jump back & forth between them, & without the distraction of constant footnotes & cross references. In other words, we can read it as Tolkien intended - a single coherent narrative. Its also available now to a general readership who simply would never (even many of those who love LotR & TH) have read UT - or even The Sil.

So, CoH is not a rip off in any way - anyone who is enough of a fan of Tolkien to own The Sil & UT (hence, those who already own the Turin Saga) would have known what CoH would contain. For anyone who didn't own those books, CoH has made the Turin saga easily available (& more cheaply than having to buy The Sil, UT & the relevant volumes of HoM-e).

I really do see some people bowing before that altar of Tolkien. Call it some weird type of JRRT political correctness for the literary crowd, but it is alive and well.

I still don't see this - I love Tolkien's work, but I don't 'worship at his altar'. I don't think everything Tolkien wrote was perfect (the 'linguistic' writings go over my head completely & to be honest I find whole chunks of The Sil virtually unreadable - Ainulindale I wade through (for all the beauty of its language) & Valaquenta is a good contender for on the dullest thing I've ever read. My response to the early parts of The Sil has always been the same - a desire to scream at Tolkien 'For ***** sake get on with it!!' Most of HoM-e I skip because its made up of multiple versions of the same story. However, I love LotR, TH, Smith, & most of The Sil writings with an abiding love, & I'd now add CoH to that list.