The Balrog vs The Witch King

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Within your rigid hierarchy, how then do you explain both Glorfindel and Ecthelion killing a Balrog? Certain even a high Elf is considered below a Maia.

And does this mean that Radagast could defeat the Witch King? After all, he is a Maia.

In any case, the Witch King does not follow strictly the Middle Earth hierarchy (even if it were true, which it evidently is not), since he holds one of the Nine Rings and thus gets some of his power directly from Sauron. So one cannot simply describe his power as that of a man, or even as a sorcerer of old...

The hierarchy is pretty rigid, and generally holds, but as I said above, the more powerful Eldar may overlap with the lesser Maiar. Glorfindel in particular, though not the greatest of the Eldar, is said to be on par with the Maiar. Certainly this holds true also for Cirdan, Luthien, Galadriel, Ecthelion, Gil-galad, Elrond, Feanor, Fingolfin, Thingol, and others.

The greatest of the Atani perhaps overlap the least of the Eldar similarly, but the Witch-King is not one of the greatest of the Atani. He does not actually hold a ring of power, Sauron keeps them. He may have been a powerful Man before his corruption, and was perhaps more powerful afterward, but we know that he still fears Glorfindel, Aragorn, and even Boromir I (see appendix).

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The hierarchy is pretty rigid, and generally holds, but as I said above, the more powerful Eldar may overlap with the lesser Maiar. Glorfindel in particular, though not the greatest of the Eldar, is said to be on par with the Maiar. Certainly this holds true also for Cirdan, Luthien, Galadriel, Ecthelion, Gil-galad, Elrond, Feanor, Fingolfin, Thingol, and others.

The greatest of the Atani perhaps overlap the least of the Eldar similarly, but the Witch-King is not one of the greatest of the Atani. He does not actually hold a ring of power, Sauron keeps them. He may have been a powerful Man before his corruption, and was perhaps more powerful afterward, but we know that he still fears Glorfindel, Aragorn, and even Boromir I (see appendix).

Well, at least this is a more reasonable set of statements. I was reacting to the blanket statements of Mansun above.

I believe both Raynor and I have now said that the Balrog would probably triumph in a match up with the Witch King.

So the issue is mainly whether the power of the Witch King was augmented, or in fact, what the nature of that power is. I personally believe that this power is fluid and perhaps hard to define (harder than, say, the power of the Balrog) because so much of the power emanates from Sauron. This explains in part to me the very different behavior of the Nazgul (and Witch King) when faced with various foes.

[obloquy]

Well, since there's no evidence to support that Sauron chose the Witch-King for special gifts, such as a prime ring (or even that there was a prime ring), it stands to reason that the power received from the nine rings is primarily that irrational fear that all the Ulairi share. It also stands to reason that those things the Witch-King excels the others in ("more powerful in all ways") are things he brought to the table himself. He was a sorcerer and, evidently, a warlord before his corruption. It is therefore not necessary to assume that he received any abilities as a sorcerer--aside from further training, perhaps--from Sauron or from his ring since he is already identified as a practicer of those arts.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Well, since there's no evidence to support that Sauron chose the Witch-King for special gifts, such as a prime ring (or even that there was a prime ring), it stands to reason that the power received from the nine rings is primarily that irrational fear that all the Ulairi share. It also stands to reason that those things the Witch-King excels the others in ("more powerful in all ways") are things he brought to the table himself. He was a sorcerer and, evidently, a warlord before his corruption. It is therefore not necessary to assume that he received any abilities as a sorcerer--aside from further training, perhaps--from Sauron or from his ring since he is already identified as a practicer of those arts.

Well, you lost me there. I can see that the Witch King is clearly building on whatever he was previously--presumably the Rings themselves do not convey the extra power that the Witch King has versus the other Nazgul. But it seems quite a stretch to then conclude that he gained little further from his connection with Sauron. Where is your evidence that this is the case? I myself do not find it logical at all...

[obloquy]

Why didn't the other Nazgul receive it as well? All the Nazgul received this weapon of supernatural fear, so if the Witch-King acquired his other powers from Sauron, why didn't the others? It makes more sense, lacking any textual indication that Sauron singled out the Witch-King for an extra helping of bad, that the ways in which the Witch-King is superior to the other eight are his own personal skillset, and that the ways in which he is like the other eight (wraith, "weaponized" fear, aversion to water) are what was received from Sauron and the nine rings.