The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The sword the Balrog used was flamed by his own power - a power fueled by spells & sorcery like whcih Gandalf had not experienced before in his wildest dreams, not even when faced by the Nine Nazgul. Do not try & pretend that a flaming sword is not one with flame due to some supernatural power.

Again, there is no clue regarding just how much, if at all, the balrog's blade was enhanced.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Again, there is no clue regarding just how much, if at all, the balrog's blade was enhanced.

Enhanced enough to be able to have a good chance of taking care of Gandalf. Or why bother provoking him when he can quite easily go back to sleep unharmed?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Enhanced enough to be able to have a good chance of taking care of Gandalf.

We have no evidence that the balrog relied on the blade to take care of Gandalf.

Or why bother provoking him when he can quite easily go back to sleep unharmed?

The ring for example, as you mentioned. Also, the fellowship would have been quite happy to just get away safely, regardless how many times they were provoked. They have little if any incentive in starting a fight.

Originally Posted by Raynor

We have no evidence that the balrog relied on the blade to take care of Gandalf.
The ring for example, as you mentioned. Also, the fellowship would have been quite happy to just get away safely, regardless how many times they were provoked. They have little if any incentive in starting a fight.

The Balrog must show his power though some means, & it seems his chief weapon was his blade. A flaming sword, in biblical terms, symbolises supernatural power. Look it up on wikipedia.

Also, we have no evidence that the Balrog was after the Ring. He could have just been angry at being awaken, plus he would have been aware (eventually) that Gandalf also was a Maiar & therefore one of the few foes who could potentially defeat him.

Whatever opinion one has, the Balrog can be seen as a truly great opponent with all the hallmarks of a demonic god-like creature of ancient legend which even heroes of modern times dare not name. The Balrog effectively made the LOTR what it is today.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

it seems his chief weapon was his blade

Their chief weapon is fear.

A flaming sword, in biblical terms, symbolises supernatural power.

Though it may symbolise that, I don't see why it is the case here. Why do you keep insisting on this, if you have no evidence?

Look it up on wikipedia.

We are not discussing the bible and its symbols or wikipedia.

Also, we have no evidence that the Balrog was after the Ring. He could have just been angry at being awaken, plus he would have been aware (eventually) that Gandalf also was a Maiar & therefore one of the few foes who could potentially defeat him.

Indeed, we have no evidence at all of whatsoever, regarding the blade or his motivations. Therefore, no valid argument can be made.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

To think some idiots actually spend lots of time typing this crap & expecting everyone to give them a pat on the back for well done . . . get a life, & an education.

You mean beyond the three advanced degrees I already possess?

Pull out the cork, sonny. This thread has degenerated into RPG silliness and deserved a good lampooning, Mr. Most-intellectual-threads.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

You mean beyond the three advanced degrees I already possess?

Pull out the cork, sonny. This thread has degenerated into RPG silliness and deserved a good lampooning, Mr. Most-intellectual-threads.

That sir was a fantastic comeback!

Nonetheless, lets keep it civil chaps, let us not forget it is a work of fiction we debate here, not the economical state of Great Britain.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

You mean beyond the three advanced degrees I already possess?

Pull out the cork, sonny. This thread has degenerated into RPG silliness and deserved a good lampooning, Mr. Most-intellectual-threads.

What counts is how you apply the education, not to mention where the degrees actually came from & what grades you acheived .

Originally Posted by Raynor

Their chief weapon is fear.

Though it may symbolise that, I don't see why it is the case here. Why do you keep insisting on this, if you have no evidence?

We are not discussing the bible and its symbols or wikipedia.

Indeed, we have no evidence at all of whatsoever, regarding the blade or his motivations. Therefore, no valid argument can be made.

Raynor, you insist to disagree with everything unless it is laid it writing by Tolkein plain & clear. If he were to do that, the LOTR would be the most boring book of all time. The link between biblical history & the LOTR is clearly made by Tolkein in many of his writings. Wikipedia has also been regarded by many as being more accurate than any encyclopedia.

I would suggest you try to look at some literacy anaylsis books to see how symbolic objects are meant to be interpreted in literature.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The link between biblical history & the LOTR is clearly made by Tolkein in many of his writings.

Such as.....?

The Witch-king's motivations are pretty explicitly laid out in the complex of papers associated with The Hunt for the Ring.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Raynor, you insist to disagree with everything unless it is laid it writing by Tolkein plain & clear. If he were to do that, the LOTR would be the most boring book of all time. The link between biblical history & the LOTR is clearly made by Tolkein in many of his writings. Wikipedia has also been regarded by many as being more accurate than any encyclopedia.

I would suggest you try to look at some literacy anaylsis books to see how symbolic objects are meant to be interpreted in literature.

Interesting that you criticize Raynor for not adhering to Tolkien (let's forget about the fact that you discount his inferences, while promoting your own with little to support them other than speculation), with the following statements just below

It is plausible to say then that this added demonic force nonsense was a mistake by Tolkein, as it implies to the reader that the Witch King has had a bit of a continuous fluctuation in his power, depending on whether Sauron had the Ring, & indeed without the Ring.

where you seem to discount what Tolkien actually said quite clearly in his letters.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Look it up on wikipedia.

Not the most reliable site on which to base your argument

Originally Posted by Mansun

Can the enhanced Witch King match such a foe? It appears not, since he would need to be at least in equal power to Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf & the Balrog of Morgoth to be so. This ends the debate once & for all - Gandalf, Balrogs, Saurman, Sauron are all essentially closely matched, that we know. The Witch King, however powerful a sorcerer, cannot fall into this supernatural category & must therefore be deemed a weaker opponent. The Witch King cannot kill a Maiar without being of equal power at least.

This brings us back to the old predicament of Glorfindel and the Balrog, of Ecthelion and Gothmog and of Fingolfin and Melkor.

Was Ecthelion on par with Gothmog, the servant of Morgoth and son of Morgoth? No, he was just a powerful Elf with particularly good fighting capabilities - doubtless he had this "power" but i would argue against it being equal to the Maija's.

Tolkien has surprised us enough with apparently "weaker" foes rising to the challenge so to speak. So to say that the Witch King is inadequate because he must be 'atleast in equal power' and he 'must therefore be deemed a weaker opponant', is in my view a little narrow minded (not personally i'm sure). Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Fingolfin each used a form of weapon to inflict damage on their foe. To say that the Balrogs were not as before, not of Maija or whatever is diverted by Fingolfins battle with Melkor, where he succeeds in frightening him and issuing him with a nice scar.

The Witch King, whom i am sure would fail to a Balrog (personally) cannot be counted out. We do not know how it would have gone, we can only bear educated guesses. After analyzing Tolkiens history of upsets it would be folly to just disregard someone because of their status in the world.