The Wise in Middle Earth

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'd agree that Sauron is a candidate for possessing the most powerful mind. Although Sauron, in his pride, fails to realise both the possibility that someone may wish to destroy the One Ring and that it may be a humble Hobbit who would undertake to do this, sneaking into Mordor by a back door. Those who work out this failing in Sauron's perception (or planning!) prove themselves to be more wise ultimately.

It is made clear by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond that Sauron is a very wise & powerful adversary, perhaps too wise for his own good. This then provides the Ring bearer a great hope, by using the arts of folly to deceive him. Even still, Sauron & Gandalf are the real masters of Middle Earth.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is made clear by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond that Sauron is a very wise & powerful adversary, perhaps too wise for his own good. This then provides the Ring bearer a great hope, by using the arts of folly to deceive him. Even still, Sauron & Gandalf are the real masters of Middle Earth.

Which goes to show that Tolkien was telling us that 'wisdom aint all that' so to speak - that even the cleverest can still be outwitted.

How far would you say Gandalf gets by on luck though? For example, he goes to Isengard because he is tricked by Saruman and manages to get himself out of this sticky situation. Do situations like that show he was not quite so clever or do they show his superior wisdom in being able to work out how to get himself out of a tight spot? Another situation might be when he was trying to get into Moria - why could he not work out the 'password'? Was that genuine? I often suspect not. But was this a misguided delaying tactic as he did not want to go in there?

And just another question that occurs - what about the way Tolkien calls his least lettered main character, one Mr Gamgee, Samwise? This Hobbit is to my mind not so dumb as he makes out.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ah, but A-S Saemwis translates 'semi-wise, half-wise'........

After all, it's Sam's *lack* of wisdom which thwarts Gollum's near-repentance. Nor does he initially trust Strider or Faramir, whilst Frodo perceives their natures. What Sam has is good plain Hobbit-sense, as well as dogged loyalty; but that's not the whole of wisdom.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Ah, but A-S Saemwis translates 'semi-wise, half-wise'........

After all, it's Sam's *lack* of wisdom which thwarts Gollum's near-repentance. Nor does he initially trust Strider or Faramir, whilst Frodo perceives their natures. What Sam has is good plain Hobbit-sense, as well as dogged loyalty; but that's not the whole of wisdom.

I think his reactions to bearing the Ring are very telling. He seems to know that what he experiences is not 'right' - of course this could be due to him wearing the Ring for the first time, but he has a particularly powerful reaction to it and responds with strength and wisdom. Maybe he has a lot more Hobbit-sense than Frodo...

Originally Posted by Mansun

Do you wish Gandalf to always be right? The LOTR would be over within 100 pages if that were the case. The wisest need not be always right (& cannot be anyway) - what counts is the means, designs, intelligence, application & knowledge of the Loremaster.

Well exactly. If Tolkien threw us an all-powerful Wizard out there then it would soon become a boring story, rather like when you are watching a predictable action film and you stop feeling any suspense because it dawns on you that this guy is just not going to fail to save the girl/world/universe In Tolkien's work though, we don't get that as even Gandalf can act the buffoon - and there is the masterstroke of having him 'die' in Moria - when I read that for the first time I was convinced he was a goner.

The best and most satisfying heroes, whether intellectual heroes or action ones and Tolkien gives us some great examples, have failings and flaws. Of course, nobody likes a smart arris, so there's another reason Tolkien may have given Gandalf a bumbling side

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien (of course) was very careful in the words he used. "Loremasters" itself is a translation of ngolmor, derived from the same root as Noldor, denoting "intellect, knowledge, factual and technical expertise."* The greatest of all Loremasters was Feanor- who most certainly wasn't wise in the sense of "prudent, perceptive, possessed of sound judgment;" nor in general were the Noldor (think Exile and Rings of Power). Elrond's mastery is shown in lore- he is Middle-earth's greatest historian, and possibly its foremost doctor. If he's also possessed of sound judgment, that's really a separate thing.

The Wise of the Third Age (the Istari and chief Eldar) again are so denoted in the first sense (the original meaning of wise, from OE witan "to know," from which we also get wit and wizard): but they aren't all "wise" in the second sense. Radagast is something of a clever fool, Saruman we know about, Celeborn doesn't come off as especially 'wise' whatever his wife may say about him, and Galadriel herself took some seven thousand years to achieve 'wisdom', even though "she was a match for the loremasters of the Noldor" already in her youth.



*For many years Tolkien used "Gnomes" as an alternate name for the Noldor, because it evoked Greek gnomos with similar meaning.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Celeborn doesn't come off as especially 'wise' whatever his wife may say about him, and Galadriel herself took some seven thousand years to achieve 'wisdom', even though "she was a match for the loremasters of the Noldor" already in her youth.
.

Maybe it was on this score that Galadriel showed her greatest wisdom?

[Knight of Gondor]

Should we not distinguish between practical wisdom (IE, possessing the mental faculties to evaluate all given factors and future possibilities, decide on the choices, select the optimal choice, and be able to take action on said choice) of the wise, and being a lore master?

Elrond may not have as much foresight as Gandalf (Gandalf's foresight suggested Pippin should journey with the Nine, and victory would have been diminished or nonexistent if Elrond's will was heeded) or Galadriel, but due to being so stationary (in Rivendell) and as the master of such a refuge, could gather much information from travelers and other great warriors. (We know he did - he also possessed the tokens of Elendil such as Narsil, and the scepter of Annuminas.)

In this sense, I propose that when Elrond is said to be the greatest lore master, it means he is master more of knowledge than of wisdom.

He also possessed the power of healing (not only power of spirit, but evidently practical medical skills) which is not exhibited either by Galadriel nor Gandalf (excepting Theoden's healing, which I deem more spiritual than physical).

As for Galadriel, she relies greatly on forsight to makes decisions, which is a sign of weakness.

I do not understand with this reasoning, and I do not agree that relying on foresight is a sign of weakness. But for the foresight of Gandalf (which seemed to many "folly"), the War of the Ring would have been lost.

Question: If Elrond and Galadriel were present at Sauron's downfall, why does the movie narration say "much that was once known is lost for none now live who remember."

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

How far would you say Gandalf gets by on luck though? For example, he goes to Isengard because he is tricked by Saruman and manages to get himself out of this sticky situation. Do situations like that show he was not quite so clever or do they show his superior wisdom in being able to work out how to get himself out of a tight spot? Another situation might be when he was trying to get into Moria - why could he not work out the 'password'? Was that genuine? I often suspect not. But was this a misguided delaying tactic as he did not want to go in there?

Do you wish Gandalf to always be right? The LOTR would be over within 100 pages if that were the case. The wisest need not be always right (& cannot be anyway) - what counts is the means, designs, intelligence, application & knowledge of the Loremaster.