The Wise in Middle Earth

[Lalwendë]

It interests me that as a Professor at probably the world's greatest University, Tolkien made some very interesting points about knowledge and learning - the most prominent one being that knowledge is not the ultimate 'good'. You can see this in so many characters as has already been pointed out.

Saruman for one is extremely clever and possibly second only to Sauron in Ring Lore, but this same knowledge is also his downfall, as he cannot see that this very knowledge is also a temptation to try Ring making for himself, and to try mastering the One.

Gandalf is outwitted by Saruman, and though he gives sage advice to many, he often gets through by the skin of his teeth. Galadriel's wisdom is tempered by a flaw in that she wishes/d to be powerful. Treebeard is slow in making decisions. Tom isolates himself.

Those who do eventually show real wisdom are those who admit their failings and flaws, showing that Tolkien was possibly making a point that nobody should ever be too proud of their knowledge or intelligence as it's simply not possible for one person to know everything.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Those who do eventually show real wisdom are those who admit their failings and flaws, showing that Tolkien was possibly making a point that nobody should ever be too proud of their knowledge or intelligence as it's simply not possible for one person to know everything.

It is the subtle application of knowledge which demonstrates wisdom, not knowledge by itself. Gandalf & Sauron were the masters of this, especially the former.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is the subtle application of knowledge which demonstrates wisdom, not knowledge by itself. Gandalf & Sauron were the masters of this, especially the former.

I'd agree that Sauron is a candidate for possessing the most powerful mind. Although Sauron, in his pride, fails to realise both the possibility that someone may wish to destroy the One Ring and that it may be a humble Hobbit who would undertake to do this, sneaking into Mordor by a back door. Those who work out this failing in Sauron's perception (or planning!) prove themselves to be more wise ultimately.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'd agree that Sauron is a candidate for possessing the most powerful mind. Although Sauron, in his pride, fails to realise both the possibility that someone may wish to destroy the One Ring and that it may be a humble Hobbit who would undertake to do this, sneaking into Mordor by a back door. Those who work out this failing in Sauron's perception (or planning!) prove themselves to be more wise ultimately.

It is made clear by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond that Sauron is a very wise & powerful adversary, perhaps too wise for his own good. This then provides the Ring bearer a great hope, by using the arts of folly to deceive him. Even still, Sauron & Gandalf are the real masters of Middle Earth.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is made clear by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond that Sauron is a very wise & powerful adversary, perhaps too wise for his own good. This then provides the Ring bearer a great hope, by using the arts of folly to deceive him. Even still, Sauron & Gandalf are the real masters of Middle Earth.

Which goes to show that Tolkien was telling us that 'wisdom aint all that' so to speak - that even the cleverest can still be outwitted.

How far would you say Gandalf gets by on luck though? For example, he goes to Isengard because he is tricked by Saruman and manages to get himself out of this sticky situation. Do situations like that show he was not quite so clever or do they show his superior wisdom in being able to work out how to get himself out of a tight spot? Another situation might be when he was trying to get into Moria - why could he not work out the 'password'? Was that genuine? I often suspect not. But was this a misguided delaying tactic as he did not want to go in there?

And just another question that occurs - what about the way Tolkien calls his least lettered main character, one Mr Gamgee, Samwise? This Hobbit is to my mind not so dumb as he makes out.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ah, but A-S Saemwis translates 'semi-wise, half-wise'........

After all, it's Sam's *lack* of wisdom which thwarts Gollum's near-repentance. Nor does he initially trust Strider or Faramir, whilst Frodo perceives their natures. What Sam has is good plain Hobbit-sense, as well as dogged loyalty; but that's not the whole of wisdom.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Ah, but A-S Saemwis translates 'semi-wise, half-wise'........

After all, it's Sam's *lack* of wisdom which thwarts Gollum's near-repentance. Nor does he initially trust Strider or Faramir, whilst Frodo perceives their natures. What Sam has is good plain Hobbit-sense, as well as dogged loyalty; but that's not the whole of wisdom.

I think his reactions to bearing the Ring are very telling. He seems to know that what he experiences is not 'right' - of course this could be due to him wearing the Ring for the first time, but he has a particularly powerful reaction to it and responds with strength and wisdom. Maybe he has a lot more Hobbit-sense than Frodo...

Originally Posted by Mansun

Do you wish Gandalf to always be right? The LOTR would be over within 100 pages if that were the case. The wisest need not be always right (& cannot be anyway) - what counts is the means, designs, intelligence, application & knowledge of the Loremaster.

Well exactly. If Tolkien threw us an all-powerful Wizard out there then it would soon become a boring story, rather like when you are watching a predictable action film and you stop feeling any suspense because it dawns on you that this guy is just not going to fail to save the girl/world/universe In Tolkien's work though, we don't get that as even Gandalf can act the buffoon - and there is the masterstroke of having him 'die' in Moria - when I read that for the first time I was convinced he was a goner.

The best and most satisfying heroes, whether intellectual heroes or action ones and Tolkien gives us some great examples, have failings and flaws. Of course, nobody likes a smart arris, so there's another reason Tolkien may have given Gandalf a bumbling side

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

How far would you say Gandalf gets by on luck though? For example, he goes to Isengard because he is tricked by Saruman and manages to get himself out of this sticky situation. Do situations like that show he was not quite so clever or do they show his superior wisdom in being able to work out how to get himself out of a tight spot? Another situation might be when he was trying to get into Moria - why could he not work out the 'password'? Was that genuine? I often suspect not. But was this a misguided delaying tactic as he did not want to go in there?

Do you wish Gandalf to always be right? The LOTR would be over within 100 pages if that were the case. The wisest need not be always right (& cannot be anyway) - what counts is the means, designs, intelligence, application & knowledge of the Loremaster.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Those who do eventually show real wisdom are those who admit their failings and flaws, showing that Tolkien was possibly making a point that nobody should ever be too proud of their knowledge or intelligence as it's simply not possible for one person to know everything.

I would say that this statement probably defines "wisdom" the best, as opposed to "knowledge". Wisdom, to me, is an inherent property of the self while knowledge is a learned attribute. This means that, iif a "wise man" was bornn complete isolation from civilization, he will still be wise. However, his wisdom will be expressed in ways that are not the ones associated with wisdom in civilization, as he would not have the opportunity to acquire the knowledge that has been learned since the beginning of written history. His wisdom will probably be reflected in more practical ways as they involve with his own survival (after all, humans are social animals and a human isolated from civilization will be very hard pressed to survive)

Conversely, a "dumb" man (for absense of a better word) will still be dumb, even if he learns all there is to know about "lore". It is not WHAT he knows, but rather HOW he uses this knowledge. For example, Saruman was very knowledgeable, but he did not see that his path would ultimately lead to his own demise. Not only would trying to compete with Sauron for the Ring lead to a very angry and vengeful Sauron... but even if Saruman had succeeded, he would have ultimately succumbed to the Ring itself, which would have caused his undoing. He might have survived, but he would have become an unwitting slave to Sauron's will.

Therefore, according to my perspective, I would say that Elrond was wise indeed as not only he had knowledge, but he acted upon it in a sensible manner. Not only he made good choices, but he also listened to other people's suggestions (even if at first he did not want to do it, he DID send Pippin with the rest of the company. Not to mention that he meant to send Pippin back to warn The Shire about the impending evil... and it would've been a reasonable course of action, as we learn much later from The Scouring of The Shire)

Gandalf was also wise, he was very aware of his own strenghts and weaknesses and was able to "see the big picture" and understand the complexities of everything that was happening in Middle Earth. He is, in my opinion, Elrond's equal, as he seeks Elrond's advice and gives advice to him.

Finally, I would say that Frodo was also wise after a fashion. Certainly he was not knowledgeable, but he managed to achieve something that very few (if anyone else) would have. He did this through his realization of his own shortcomings, which lead him to lean on those who were willing to help him. Should he had been "wise" (note: sarcasm) as Saruman, he might have been to proud to accept help from Faramir, Sam or even Gollum (he might have had an ulterior motive, but without Gollum the Ring would have never been destroyed, and I don't mean the finger biting alone).

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Those who do eventually show real wisdom are those who admit their failings and flaws, showing that Tolkien was possibly making a point that nobody should ever be too proud of their knowledge or intelligence as it's simply not possible for one person to know everything.

Just have to comment on this, in light of the fact that everybody seems to doubt Celeborn’s wisdom. (Yes, I am a Celeborn fangirl.)

If we believe this then Celeborn is indeed wise for being able to admit his mistakes. Unlike nearly every other elf in the books, who take ages to admit their mistakes, the second Galadriel points out his to him he admits it and apologizes. Certainly this is better than the ring-bearers who couldn’t destroy their rings even though Tolkien seems to believe they should have. It seems to me that to many fans, only the Noldor are considered as possible wise elves, even though they’re the ones that make 75% of the mistakes - Silmarils, kinslayings, rings. Galadriel is clearly not that wise to me - she thinks that she could have taken the one ring and used it. Besides Elwe and his descendants, do we see any really stupid actions by the Sindar on par with the Noldor’s mistakes?

[Andsigil]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Cirdan- a character about whom I wish Tolkien had written an entire book of stories.

I keep up the hope that he did, and that Christopher Tolkien has only to stumble across some musty steamer trunk buried in the attic...

[LadyBrooke]

I wish he had written more about Cirdan too. So we could know how old he is and such. I bet that's one elf who's lived an exciting life.

But I bet the same thing applies to him that seems to apply to all the elves: If you havn't made a major mistake (kinslaying, rings, ect.) or are related to somebody who has, we don't see much of you (at least in LotR and Sil, in TH we did see Thranduil).

Since the wise are less likely to make mistakes (by my definition of wise, which excludes Elrond and Galadriel - genusies, yes; wise, no) we learn less about them.

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Cirdan- a character about whom I wish Tolkien had written an entire book of stories.

I keep up the hope that he did, and that Christopher Tolkien has only to stumble across some musty steamer trunk buried in the attic...

There is more about Cirdan in The Unfinished Tales and The Peoples Of Middle-Earth, his relationship to Elwe and the search for him. There is more, I won't spoil it, enjoy

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by narfforc

There is more about Cirdan in The Unfinished Tales and The Peoples Of Middle-Earth, his relationship to Elwe and the search for him. There is more, I won't spoil it, enjoy

Really? I'm definately going to have to get that (Peoples of Middle Earth) now. He's always been one of my favourite elves, and I don't think he's given as much credit as he should be.

[JeffF.]

I just wanted to respond to the original post. Elrond never said he would choose Glorfindel over Pippin. Gandalf used Glorfindel as an example of a potential alternate to Pippin. Elrond's objection to Pippin was his age (by his own admition in RotK Pippin was not yet at the hobbit age of adulthood) and wished to send him with warning to the Shire to prepare as best they could.

Glorfindel would not have been all that bad a choice. An elflord with his power "revealed in his wrath" would have been an excellent way of fixing Sauron's attention and distracting him from the real ringbearer, but in all likelihood it would probably have been Glorfindel who would fall fighting the Balrog in Moria rather than Gandalf (since he'd killed one before at the Fall of Gondolin at the cost of his own life), but then Gandalf would not have been reincarnated as Gandalf the White.

[narfforc]

Glorfindel was supposed to have been sent 'back' to renforce Gil-galad and Elrond early in The Second Age. Imladris was the last bastion of strength for the Noldorin Elves, I don't think Elrond would have let Glorfindel go anyway. If Lorien or The Woodland Realm in the North fell, then Imladris would have been the last refuge for their remnants on the way to the Grey Havens.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

I just wanted to respond to the original post. Elrond never said he would choose Glorfindel over Pippin. Gandalf used Glorfindel as an example of a potential alternate to Pippin. Elrond's objection to Pippin was his age (by his own admition in RotK Pippin was not yet at the hobbit age of adulthood) and wished to send him with warning to the Shire to prepare as best they could.

Glorfindel would not have been all that bad a choice. An elflord with his power "revealed in his wrath" would have been an excellent way of fixing Sauron's attention and distracting him from the real ringbearer, but in all likelihood it would probably have been Glorfindel who would fall fighting the Balrog in Moria rather than Gandalf (since he'd killed one before at the Fall of Gondolin at the cost of his own life), but then Gandalf would not have been reincarnated as Gandalf the White.

Let's be honest - it was insanity sending 4 hobbits off to Mordor in the first place. And incredible that Elrond, Gandalf and Aragorn would countenance such a move.