Split Personality?

[Sauron the White]

Thanks for pointing that out. I will check it out.
Does anyone here get my higher point about double standards on these boards?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Thanks for pointing that out. I will check it out.
Does anyone here get my higher point about double standards on these boards?

I think your comment regarding double standards is well understood. You've certainly hammered at it enough that only the densest should fail to get it. Put simply put, you want us to overlook the unrealities in the movies in the same way we do with the books.

Which is a fair point, in my opinion--and the reason I left the Denethor plunge alone has nothing so much to do with the fact I'm no scientist/runner/pyromaniac (though that is case), but because when I watch the movies I'm able to suspend disbelief there.

There. Not everywhere else.

Basically, I think our willingness to suspend disbelief has to do with the "magic" cast by the work in general. Yes, for the Book, most fans are willing to go to outrageous lengths to gloss over how an inconsistency works out. That is a suspension of disbelief in practice, as you point out. And the reason so many fans will do it is because of the "magic". That is, they love the book.

Most book fans, simply put, found that the "magic" did not translate evenly into the Movies--regardless of consistencies in story, adaptation of plot, and other situations requiring suspension of belief. Myself, I found the "magic" there in the Fellowship, albeit dimmed from the book, and less so in the latter two movies.

Without the "magic" to motivate it, there is little or no point to the suspension of disbelief. It isn't just a rational exercise. If so then you would go to the movie, gloss over the part you needed to, then either forget about it, or deem the need to gloss in the first place a defect in the movie.

For a lot of fans--particularly those enamoured of the book magic--the "magic" was not in the movies, so the need to suspend disbeliefs was a defect in the movies.


I hope I'm making some sense... it seems clear up here.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Does anyone here get my higher point about double standards on these boards?

Obviously not.

I've actually considered resurrecting or creating a thread where we can hash out which is better, the movies or the books and any piece, person or part therein, but then immediately realized while the thread would provide much heat (or not), little light would shine through. Neither side, when it comes down to it, can provide an objective argument as to why one is better than the other. In the end, it will boil down to opinion, and so we'd be no farther than we are today. If you think otherwise, go for it, and let's see me proved wrong - and I have no problem posting for posting's sake.


Speaking of dwarves, Galadriel or Arwen? Sound familiar?

We nitpick Jackson as he's given us the large target and some arrows to use. The movies are easy to criticize given the medium, to my knowledge we always rate movies and it's not hard in that we can look and see that! just ain't right. Doing the same thing in the books is a little harder as one might have to do more research before nocking an arrow (and in some cases, we only have one shot to get it right before persons return fire).

My previous post was yet another attempt to get this thread back on track for those so inclined.

[Sauron the White]

Thank you to both Formendacil and Alatar for the very good explainations. Some very good points were raised - and I like the part about "magic" since that seems the prime motivation for excercising ones willing suspension of disbelief. I will give it up on the running and Gimli --- for the time being bowing to discretion.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Some very good points were raised - and I like the part about "magic" since that seems the prime motivation for excercising ones willing suspension of disbelief.

I've been thinking about this as well, and even considered a new thread. Is it truly "willing?" I can never remember ever sitting, either in the theater or at home with a book, saying to myself, "Oh, this Balrog thing is going to take some belief suspension." alatar assumes the lotus position..."Hmmm. Hmmm. Balrogs exist. Balrogs exist..."

Whether Jackson or Tolkien, I think that when they're at their best, you don't even have to try to suspend belief. That, to me, is why LotR is so good, and why PJ really scored with Gollum.

I will give it up on the running and Gimli --- for the time being bowing to discretion.

Note that Sisyphus would quit if he could.

[littlemanpoet]

I also understand your point on "double standard"; I just disagree, for one simple reason: Middle Earth is Tolkien's creation. Jackson was given permission to borrow it. So the standard lies with Tolkien, and Jackson had a responsibility to be true to the standard.

Subsequent posts on "the magic" and "willing suspension of disbelief" bring to mind what may be objective distinctions between the book and movie, something to which I need give more thought: with "magic", are we talking perhaps about those old "mythic unities" that are all over the book but not in the movie? And with willing suspension of disbelief, Tolkien posited a higher level, which he called "secondary belief". I think these two concepts may bear upon this larger discussion.

By the way, I have no problem with this thread detouring onto bigger topics, so long as the original is considered to have been more or less resolved, and these new detours arise naturally from discussion of the initial topic.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Is it truly "willing?" I can never remember ever sitting, either in the theater or at home with a book, saying to myself, "Oh, this Balrog thing is going to take some belief suspension." alatar assumes the lotus position..."Hmmm. Hmmm. Balrogs exist. Balrogs exist..."

Whether Jackson or Tolkien, I think that when they're at their best, you don't even have to try to suspend belief. That, to me, is why LotR is so good, and why PJ really scored with Gollum.

A good belt of sub-creation beats suspenders any day, hey?