Denethor's plunge

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Fin ... interesting take on it all. I simply find nothing in all of the ME writings to indicate that the normal human physics and physiology have been drastically altered to permit such a thing. Or are we back to "its only make believe to go with it"? In the end that excuses everything.

"Drastically" is a subjective word. Try living 900 years. Guessing that your blood chemistry is slightly different as you need to clean out all of those 'free radicals' that can build up, which can shoot holes in your DNA, which can lead to copying errors, ...

Would the same human - twins - live longer in Mordor or Bree (assuming no one had them from dinner)? Could the Third Age have a world more like Lorien than Mordor? What does that do for the blood? Why do some present day athletes train at higher altitudes with sparse oxygen (besides having time shares that they can't unload) other than to increase their stamina? What if Third Age Middle Earth was a few more percentages of oxygen and less nitrogen? Why have some athletes been caught taking performance-altering drugs? Could these 'drugs' be part of the bread that Aragorn eats?

Note that some are hypocrites and some just like a good argu...discussion.

I completely understand your point. But to me, with all of the other unbelievable things in Middle Earth, I find the running of the Three easily explained in the Books. As others have said, I carp about PJ as (1) it's genetic with me, (2) I could have done better - I just lack the talent, resources and experience and (3) it sure beats looking at data.

Thanks for playing along.


** It's funny, but last night my son, no where close to being a teenager, asked me to talk about the Lord of the Rings while he crossed over into sleeping. He saw that I was reading HoME - that's how it started. Anyway, he's watched all of the Peter Jackson movies (My son...Duh!) and we referred to them as he remembers the movies and RotK video game (that used movie clips) better than the story he's never read. Anyway, he said of Gimli, "He fell down a lot. He's stupid!"

Thanks PJ. My job's a little harder now that I have to undo some of your work.

[Sauron the White]

I will fight the urge to proudly beat my chest and proclaim that all these intellectual gymnastics only again prove my ultimate point.............. BUT ...........
okay ... lets discuss.


Knight of Gondor ....... excellent post and very good use of matematics and science. I only wish that you and others here knew as much about the physiology of running as you do about Tolkien. A well trained distance runner trains for four to six months to run a single 26 mile marathon. After that grueling effort, they usually take from several days to a week off. You need that for your muscles to rest and recoup. I have run many marathons and was well trained for all of them. For most of them I could not go to work the next day and I taught at a desk. Sometimes you can barely lift your leg more than a few inches off the ground that evening after you complete the 26 miles.

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row. Just cannot be done given the physical anatomy and the mechanics and demands of running.

Is there some reason why this is not sinking in?

This is not about formulas, this is not about mathematics, this is not about super powered baked goods or anything else. Like Robert DeNiro says in THE DEERHUNTER ... "this is this".

You can be a strapping hulk of a man who can work a 12 hour shift in a factory or lumber mill but you cannot run very far without a long period of training. You can be a killing machine soldier but you cannot run very far without a long period of training. You can be the most motivated person in the world chasing the demons of Hell itself to save your loved ones, but you cannot run very rar without a long period of training.

Its simple physical anatomy and physiology.

Why is this not sinking in?

I will agree... and let me put this in caps so I am clear...

I KNOW THIS IS A FANTASY.
I KNOW THIS IS A WORLD CREATED BY JRRT.
I KNOW HE IS FREE TO MAKE IT UP AS HE GOES ALONG.
I KNOW THAT JACKSON DID NOT CREATE THIS WORLD.

Yes, so lets get all that out of the way.

By one point from the beginning is that the same rigid standard which is applied (with grinning delight by some here) to pointing out the foibles and errors of the Jackson films is totally absent when discussing anything that approaches a hole, defect or shortcoming in the books. Alatar seems to be fair-minded enough to see that and admit. What is wrong with this whole thing? IS it me?

I refuse to accept the idea that its a fantasy written by JRRT and thus anything he put in there is 100% perfection regardless of the failings of its own internal structure. Even a fantasy world has an internal structure that it must adhere to. That is fundamental.

Maybe I am the fool for trying to get people to see that their Emperor occassionally runs the streets lacking proper clothing. Not always - not most of the time - but some of the time..... occassionally.

And I still love the Emperor regardless.

[Quempel]

Even a fantasy world has an internal structure that it must adhere to. That is fundamental

This is where I see the difference, to me a fantasy world does not have to have an internal structure to adhere to. It is not a fundamental part of the fantasy world, unlike reality. This is why I can wrap my head around the Three Hunters being able to run for miles on end, its not real. It is also why I can believe (even if it is a bad choice on PJ's part) that Denathor can run on fire and jump off a cliff. It is also why I can wrap my head around the idea that hobbit's, jedi's and whatever else can be in the middle of a spewing volcano and not have their lungs burnt to crisp by the sulfiric acids in the air, much less the heat.

I do find it interesting that some people can accept certain portions of the fantasy world, without being able to accept other parts.

Why is it so hard to imagine that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are fantasy characters in a book/movie and could possibly run that far, yet it is easy to accept some of the other non-reality issues? The fact is there are no Elves on this planet. There are no Hobbits, Lembas, Orcs, Giant Eagles, or Tree Herding Ents. Why apply the standards of reality to the fantasy? Fantasy is something we all love to think about and some even wish could happen. But the reality is there is no Aragorn coming to save the day, no great war of good and evil, and no way a real person could run that far.

You assume that our standards and rules apply to those living beings in middle earth, and it is my opinion those rules and principles do not need to apply to middle earth.

What I have a problem with is not the whole Denethor running while on fire, sure it didn't make sense, but why the change at all. The book Denethor death was much better, it almost was a redeaming death for Denethor, the movie made him look like a weak fool, not a greedy jerk (for lack of better terms here) that I had always pictured him to be who finally realized what a jerk he had been, especially to Faramir.

[Sauron the White]

There are times I feel like someone who has been preaching to the villagers at some backwater in Appalachia about the evil of incest. They keep shaking their heads marvelling at the crap that stranger keeps babbling. They are happy with their ways and accept them completely. But they smile at him and keep on keeping on.

[Knight of Gondor]

I will fight the urge to proudly beat my chest and proclaim that all these intellectual gymnastics only again prove my ultimate point

Your point being that Tolkien fans adhere to an inconsistent need to defend Tolkien while attacking Peter Jackson? I have already illustrated the differences, and already stated that I feel no inner compulsion to prove or disprove the capability of the Three Hunters to do so. I entertained the challenge strictly for the intellectual challenge it provided.

Allow me to illustrate.

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row.

No it isn't. It has been done before.

There are times I feel like someone who has been preaching to the villagers at some backwater in Appalachia about the evil of incest. They keep shaking their heads marvelling at the crap that stranger keeps babbling. They are happy with their ways and accept them completely. But they smile at him and keep on keeping on.

Please avoid being offensive. Pointing out inconsistent fans is one thing. Insulting those fans is quite another.

[Sauron the White]

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.
2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe
3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real
4- magic stuff like super races of people, magic foodstuffs and will power can make anything possible despite the rules of science and physiology
5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said
6- Jackson did not make a page for page word for word translation of the book to film so anything that deviates from that is heresy... and what did I do with that bundle of kindling
7-if any of items 2 through 6 do not work for a particular argument, please always refer back to item #1

You have a wonderful all encompassing Catch 22 here. If Tolkien created his world, anything he has his creations do in his world is perfect and thus cannot be worng. Thus, there are no errors in the work, there are no holes (other than the previously mention major loophole), there are no lapses in logic or reason, and there can be no defying of scinece, physiology or anything else we might normally call reality. We got it covered and can never be wrong.

Since Peter Jakcson did not create that same world, any deviation on behalf of Jackson from the Written Word is automatically wrong and in error.

Now who is insulting who with that type of reasoning? And you hide behind the presumption that you are engaging in free and open intellectual debate. Gimme a break.

I give Alatar a lot of credit. He admits his sacred cows. He makes good arguments but still admits there is some hypocrisy involved. I guess to some others even that admission is heresy.

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.

[alatar]

Being a picker of bones and a quibbler extraordinaire:

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:

Many assumes more than 50%. That to me is way to high considering the persons posting in the Movies.

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.

You might want to check your keyboard cable. Surely some will disagree with you when you take on Tolkien, but you can post all the same. Think of it as posting, "Go Browns!" on a Pittsburgh Steelers (American football) fan site. At least here people will use good grammar.

2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe

I came from this from the other side. I was very anti-PJ all due to the Gandalf vs Witch-King scene. I was amazed that everyone did not agree with me that the scene was the worst thing PJ could ever do. Now, with some help from posters on the other side, I have learned to love the bomb.

3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real

Not true. The reason Tolkien's world works ("Praise him beyond all praise!") is that, for much of it, it is internally consistent. Dragons talk but do not farm. Ale never gives anyone a hangover. Tolkien sets up and follows his own rules...er...for the most part. Check out the Books section for talking foxes, talking trolls, steam locomotives and other oddities (dare I say mistakes?!?) noted by members here.

4- magic stuff like super races of people, magic foodstuffs and will power can make anything possible despite the rules of science and physiology

By accepting Tolkien's world, you accept his rules. Lembas help the body and will but will not sate your thirst. Elven cloaks will not stop arrows. And again, concerned the 'running' topic, you assume that his world works like ours when the magic etc would indicate otherwise.

5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said

Count the pages posted by me in the Sequence by Sequence, and yet I'm still going (it's a gift).

6- Jackson did not make a page for page word for word translation of the book to film so anything that deviates from that is heresy... and what did I do with that bundle of kindling

It's out back by the garage. I swallowed many changes, like many (there's that word again) others here did as well. But, even you have to admit, some of the changes were just silly.

Since Peter Jakcson did not create that same world, any deviation on behalf of Jackson from the Written Word is automatically wrong and in error.

What I hope is apparent is when you know the lyrics to a song - Beatles, The Who, Avril Lavigne - and when some one covers the song, the difference is magnified due to the difference in singer and the change in words. You note a change in the expected pattern and so examine it more closely.

Then you just pile on for lack of other entertainment.

Now who is insulting who with that type of reasoning? And you hide behind the presumption that you are engaging in free and open intellectual debate. Gimme a break.

Think that the Faithful, the Heretic and the Stormcrow (that would be me) all post here.

I give Alatar a lot of credit.

I accept PayPal.

He admits his sacred cows. He makes good arguments but still admits there is some hypocrisy involved. I guess to some others even that admission is heresy.

As I've said many many times before: "Take a breath - remember, we’re typing on an internet site regarding a man’s work. Our eternal destiny and that of the world is not going to be decided here." Unless you cannot accept that the Three Hunters ran 135 miles in 3.5 days...

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.

Maybe your argument is with someone else then. I can truly understand that.

Anyway, I've posted here in fun, I'm done and care not how far Denethor did run.

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.

I'm looking around and trying to figure out who you are talking to. Or about.

2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe
3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real

You seem intent on ignoring the previous points posted by Alatar and myself which indicate not a free-styling "anything goes" world, but a world where events extend just beyond our borders of mortality. C.S. Lewis once likened the miracles of Christ to a game of chess, where this move or that move may be taken back at certain points, but at no time do you suppose you can move any piece anywhere at any time. This destroys the value of the game, and creates unruly anarchy. So it would seem to be with fantasy. And again, if these little things continue to nag and irritate you (still further, that they don't bother others) then I submit for a second time that perhaps fantasy just isn't your cup of tea.

5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said

You are either not referring to me, or did not read what I wrote. Either way, you owe it to us to make clear to whom you refer.

You have a wonderful all encompassing Catch 22 here. If Tolkien created his world, anything he has his creations do in his world is perfect and thus cannot be worng. Thus, there are no errors in the work, there are no holes (other than the previously mention major loophole), there are no lapses in logic or reason, and there can be no defying of scinece, physiology or anything else we might normally call reality. We got it covered and can never be wrong.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth at least, and to my knowledge, Alatar's. I do not believe anyone here suggests Tolkien is perfect, or is averse to highlighting flaws in the book. Tolkien himself was constantly rewriting the series.

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.

The truth seems to come forth, and I believe that in revealing latent hostility towards religion, we have taken a step beyond the scope of this forum. For the record, as a born-again Christian, I reject the notion that any mortal (Pope or not, "Saint" or not, "Mother of God" or not) can attain perfection in word or deed on earth, save one, Jesus Christ. Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar.

Nonetheless, this thread, this forum and this website were not created to debate or discuss specifically religious themes apart from Tolkien's world. If you would be so kind as to e-mail me, I would look forward to continuing the discussion there.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I KNOW THIS IS A FANTASY.
I KNOW THIS IS A WORLD CREATED BY JRRT.
I KNOW HE IS FREE TO MAKE IT UP AS HE GOES ALONG.
I KNOW THAT JACKSON DID NOT CREATE THIS WORLD.

So if you then believe this, stop calling us all "hypocrites" for defending the books over the movies. Middle earth is not Jackson's world. He did a great job adapting it from book to screen, no doubt. Yet he did not adhere to some of the most pivotal details concerning characters and events. Therefore, no matter what you say- we will always talk and complain about the wrongly portrayed characters/events/etc. in Jackson's films.

And please stop comparing my faith with the books/JRRT. Thanks.