Denethor's plunge

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

In your post you did exactly what I predicted some would do to justify the feat of running 135 miles in 3 days without any training. Here is what I posted yesterday asking how a Mr. Andy Jones could run over 100 miles in one day.

Four days, and that's assuming that the planet that is Middle Earth turned one every 24 hours. Without a sizeable satellite like our moon, who knows what its rotation would be...

alatar prepares to bring out quantum mechanics to defend to the death (of reason) the works of Tolkien.

In point of fact, I said in the beginning that I could buy the idea of Legolas performing this feat given the extraordinary physiology of Elves. Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

My take on Tolkien's world is that we're running down from concentrated power to the more mundane and pedestrian. Elves leave, the world no longer looks like Lorien, Men live shorter lives (from 900 years to 1/10 that, and when I get the time I will graph the life expectancy curve while noting the outlier that is Elessar), and so everything is not exactly like it is today. And note that superhuman distances, as you say, is subjective. Look at what human kind has done. The Great Wall, the Pyramids, Monday Night Football - these seemingly superhuman creations were created by the hands of average Joe's and Jane's, but they look unbelievable to me, and I have electricity.

Did the warrior messenger that ran the first marathon, Pheidippides, train extensively and wear custom made sneakers? Sure, he may have died after delivering his message, but that was due his seeing the Marathon to Athens bus schedule that would have taken him the same distance in a third of the time for 2 dinars.

And now we come to Gimli. Dwarves may be strong, they may be hardy, they may be tough, and they may be great to have on your side in a fight. But their anatomy and physiology WORK AGAINST THE ABILITY TO RUN. Long distance runners alomst exclusively have very small body frames compared to most of the population. They have longer legs and weaker upper bodies with little upper body muscle mass. They tend to be thin or even skinny. But their leg muscles would shame the average football player. Their physiology and anatomy helps them run. The body of a dwarf- short stunted legs, heavy upper body with lots of muscle mass, is the direct opposite of a runners body. It is foolish and totally contradictory to fact to think tht someone with this body type and no long distance training could run 135 miles in three days... even with your magic drug of lembas.

Four days. And Gimli may not be the sprinter that Jackson purported, but the creature did not tire. He most likely had to continually 'catch up' while the other two Hunters stood around and chatted about Legolas's hair, but still he could stay with them. And it's well known that Dwarves carried secret containers of helium which could be used to inflate their leather jerkins. Legolas obviously towed the floating Gimli behind him like a balloon - if that's not obvious from the text, I just don't know what else to say...

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

You tend to see this trait in humans. Love is blind, and all that. My guess is that if you were to look into some of the other parts of the forum, you might see the same skepticism that you read so much here in regards to the Peter Jackson films.

[Sauron the White]

They met up with Eomer and company on the fourth day. The vast bulk of that 135 was done in three days time.

Nothing that has been said changes the basic human anatomy or physiology. Glycogen supplies muscles and the muscles must be trained over long periods of time to store glycogen. Nothing that has been said gets around that basic fact of reality.

Thank you for pointing out what happens when an untrained runner runs 20 miles - they can drop dead. While doing my six miles this morning I thought of that Marathon soldier and you beat me to it. Now double that and do it for three straight days. Impossible.

But Alatar, again I thank you. You join with others to prove my point. I am not arguing about the Three Hunters in principle. My point has been said again and again that what I am railing against in hypocrisy. Over and over again, this site has been used by the True Believers to bash the Jackson films. They use every manner of argument including, logic, reasoning, their deductive powers, mathematics, philosophy, common sense, physics, science and good old fashioned creative thinking. And god bless all of you for being so smart.

But those same people, when it comes to works of JRRT, have a blind spot that is immense. Yesterday you described it as your own sacred cow.

Regardless if you love the books or if you love the films - and I happen to love both - it takes a deliberate effort to believe in what we love --- its called the willing suspension of disbelief. We all do it. But when its quickly and blindly extended to the books with their holes and faults, but not the films with their holes and faults that is hypocrisy. And that is an ugly mantle to wrap yourself in.

And it's well known that Dwarves carried secret containers of helium which could be used to inflate their leather jerkins. Legolas obviously towed the floating Gimli behind him like a ballon - if that's not obvious from the text, I just don't know what else to say...

That was truly funny. It made me laugh.

[Finduilas]

Could I suggest that the hypocrisy is caused by the fact that since Tolkien created ME, he is able to make the impossible possible, but since PJ is only the director of a movie based of LotR, he is considered by the "True Believers" to have no right in doing such things? Its Tolkiens world. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas can, in his world run that far in that amount of time. Denethor on fire..... well, he didn't.

I don't want to join in on this arguement, but I did want to make an excuse for the hypocrisy(and sure, I'm often a hypocrite...).

[Sauron the White]

Fin ... interesting take on it all. I simply find nothing in all of the ME writings to indicate that the normal human physics and physiology have been drastically altered to permit such a thing. Or are we back to "its only make believe to go with it"? In the end that excuses everything.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Fin ... interesting take on it all. I simply find nothing in all of the ME writings to indicate that the normal human physics and physiology have been drastically altered to permit such a thing. Or are we back to "its only make believe to go with it"? In the end that excuses everything.

"Drastically" is a subjective word. Try living 900 years. Guessing that your blood chemistry is slightly different as you need to clean out all of those 'free radicals' that can build up, which can shoot holes in your DNA, which can lead to copying errors, ...

Would the same human - twins - live longer in Mordor or Bree (assuming no one had them from dinner)? Could the Third Age have a world more like Lorien than Mordor? What does that do for the blood? Why do some present day athletes train at higher altitudes with sparse oxygen (besides having time shares that they can't unload) other than to increase their stamina? What if Third Age Middle Earth was a few more percentages of oxygen and less nitrogen? Why have some athletes been caught taking performance-altering drugs? Could these 'drugs' be part of the bread that Aragorn eats?

Note that some are hypocrites and some just like a good argu...discussion.

I completely understand your point. But to me, with all of the other unbelievable things in Middle Earth, I find the running of the Three easily explained in the Books. As others have said, I carp about PJ as (1) it's genetic with me, (2) I could have done better - I just lack the talent, resources and experience and (3) it sure beats looking at data.

Thanks for playing along.


** It's funny, but last night my son, no where close to being a teenager, asked me to talk about the Lord of the Rings while he crossed over into sleeping. He saw that I was reading HoME - that's how it started. Anyway, he's watched all of the Peter Jackson movies (My son...Duh!) and we referred to them as he remembers the movies and RotK video game (that used movie clips) better than the story he's never read. Anyway, he said of Gimli, "He fell down a lot. He's stupid!"

Thanks PJ. My job's a little harder now that I have to undo some of your work.

[Sauron the White]

I will fight the urge to proudly beat my chest and proclaim that all these intellectual gymnastics only again prove my ultimate point.............. BUT ...........
okay ... lets discuss.


Knight of Gondor ....... excellent post and very good use of matematics and science. I only wish that you and others here knew as much about the physiology of running as you do about Tolkien. A well trained distance runner trains for four to six months to run a single 26 mile marathon. After that grueling effort, they usually take from several days to a week off. You need that for your muscles to rest and recoup. I have run many marathons and was well trained for all of them. For most of them I could not go to work the next day and I taught at a desk. Sometimes you can barely lift your leg more than a few inches off the ground that evening after you complete the 26 miles.

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row. Just cannot be done given the physical anatomy and the mechanics and demands of running.

Is there some reason why this is not sinking in?

This is not about formulas, this is not about mathematics, this is not about super powered baked goods or anything else. Like Robert DeNiro says in THE DEERHUNTER ... "this is this".

You can be a strapping hulk of a man who can work a 12 hour shift in a factory or lumber mill but you cannot run very far without a long period of training. You can be a killing machine soldier but you cannot run very far without a long period of training. You can be the most motivated person in the world chasing the demons of Hell itself to save your loved ones, but you cannot run very rar without a long period of training.

Its simple physical anatomy and physiology.

Why is this not sinking in?

I will agree... and let me put this in caps so I am clear...

I KNOW THIS IS A FANTASY.
I KNOW THIS IS A WORLD CREATED BY JRRT.
I KNOW HE IS FREE TO MAKE IT UP AS HE GOES ALONG.
I KNOW THAT JACKSON DID NOT CREATE THIS WORLD.

Yes, so lets get all that out of the way.

By one point from the beginning is that the same rigid standard which is applied (with grinning delight by some here) to pointing out the foibles and errors of the Jackson films is totally absent when discussing anything that approaches a hole, defect or shortcoming in the books. Alatar seems to be fair-minded enough to see that and admit. What is wrong with this whole thing? IS it me?

I refuse to accept the idea that its a fantasy written by JRRT and thus anything he put in there is 100% perfection regardless of the failings of its own internal structure. Even a fantasy world has an internal structure that it must adhere to. That is fundamental.

Maybe I am the fool for trying to get people to see that their Emperor occassionally runs the streets lacking proper clothing. Not always - not most of the time - but some of the time..... occassionally.

And I still love the Emperor regardless.

[Quempel]

Even a fantasy world has an internal structure that it must adhere to. That is fundamental

This is where I see the difference, to me a fantasy world does not have to have an internal structure to adhere to. It is not a fundamental part of the fantasy world, unlike reality. This is why I can wrap my head around the Three Hunters being able to run for miles on end, its not real. It is also why I can believe (even if it is a bad choice on PJ's part) that Denathor can run on fire and jump off a cliff. It is also why I can wrap my head around the idea that hobbit's, jedi's and whatever else can be in the middle of a spewing volcano and not have their lungs burnt to crisp by the sulfiric acids in the air, much less the heat.

I do find it interesting that some people can accept certain portions of the fantasy world, without being able to accept other parts.

Why is it so hard to imagine that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are fantasy characters in a book/movie and could possibly run that far, yet it is easy to accept some of the other non-reality issues? The fact is there are no Elves on this planet. There are no Hobbits, Lembas, Orcs, Giant Eagles, or Tree Herding Ents. Why apply the standards of reality to the fantasy? Fantasy is something we all love to think about and some even wish could happen. But the reality is there is no Aragorn coming to save the day, no great war of good and evil, and no way a real person could run that far.

You assume that our standards and rules apply to those living beings in middle earth, and it is my opinion those rules and principles do not need to apply to middle earth.

What I have a problem with is not the whole Denethor running while on fire, sure it didn't make sense, but why the change at all. The book Denethor death was much better, it almost was a redeaming death for Denethor, the movie made him look like a weak fool, not a greedy jerk (for lack of better terms here) that I had always pictured him to be who finally realized what a jerk he had been, especially to Faramir.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I KNOW THIS IS A FANTASY.
I KNOW THIS IS A WORLD CREATED BY JRRT.
I KNOW HE IS FREE TO MAKE IT UP AS HE GOES ALONG.
I KNOW THAT JACKSON DID NOT CREATE THIS WORLD.

So if you then believe this, stop calling us all "hypocrites" for defending the books over the movies. Middle earth is not Jackson's world. He did a great job adapting it from book to screen, no doubt. Yet he did not adhere to some of the most pivotal details concerning characters and events. Therefore, no matter what you say- we will always talk and complain about the wrongly portrayed characters/events/etc. in Jackson's films.

And please stop comparing my faith with the books/JRRT. Thanks.

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Could I suggest that the hypocrisy is caused by the fact that since Tolkien created ME, he is able to make the impossible possible, but since PJ is only the director of a movie based of LotR, he is considered by the "True Believers" to have no right in doing such things? Its Tolkiens world. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas can, in his world run that far in that amount of time. Denethor on fire..... well, he didn't.

I don't want to join in on this arguement, but I did want to make an excuse for the hypocrisy(and sure, I'm often a hypocrite...).

I agree.

And once again, it's a fantasy book and movie. So in impossible world of reality sure a human can't run that many miles in a day. But in a fantasy book...they can. Superman flys because of the high he gets off our yellow sun, but in reality humans don't fly. It is called a fantasy book/movie for a reason. Funny that it's ok to believe PJ's Denathor can run three miles while burning up steep slopes and it's believable part of the movie fantasy, but heaven forbid Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli run 145 kilo's (was Tolkien talking English Meters or American Miles?)

Hello pot met kettle.

And for the record Middle Earth was Tolkien's world, not Peter Jackson's. Pete just interpreted it and made movies, he did not invent it. And that is the difference between the two. Again I point out my statement about Gibson, it is the same with Jackson. Just because a producer/director made tons of awards and money off of a story, does not make it their story. Same can be said for any director (such as Lucas) who make movies out of stories that have long been written by others.

I must say however, this debate, or whatever it is, has drawn me out of lurking. Which can be considered either a good or bad thing, depending on the point of view.

[Knight of Gondor]

I honestly feel that all of this is pointless. It's like demanding to know where Gandalf peed while he was imprisoned on Orthanc, or how Luthien could cloak herself in the guise of another animal. These intrusive "that's not real!" objections tend to indicate (to me) that if all of these challenges come to your mind, you're not a fantasy buff.

When you attack the films that is fair game. When other attack the books that is nitpicking. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

Actually...no. Peter Jackson's job was to convert the books from print to movie. He wasn't hired to rewrite LotR. All in all, I give the man high marks, I believe he did a good job.

Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

I don't quite feel the compulsion to defend the act. I am certain there are numerous other examples of implausibility within the novels. But I note that absence of knowledge ("I know of nothing") is not knowledge of absence (he could not have).

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

Naturally, fantasy aficionados would like to reconcile the differences between the real world and Middle-Earth to make belief and acceptance easier for their rational minds. I feel that fantasy in this case does not need defending.

Fantasy exists as a medium of escapism for many, if not most. I'll wager that most of your readers endeavoring to defend the otherwise implausible moments in Lord of the Rings are doing so because they want to believe it is attainable in the real world. They would rather make our world in the image of Middle-Earth than the opposite.

If real life is the apple, fantasy is the orange. The defining trait of escapism is in immersing one's self in an alternate world; its very merit of the orange lies in being different from the apple. To try to reconcile the orange into the apple is defeating the very purpose of the orange.

I also think you miss the point regarding fault-finding in the film. Having accepted the novels, the quarrels and nitpicking result from the disparities between them and the film adaptation. Finding logical faults in one thing alone (the books) is much different than finding fault between two things (translation from book to film), especially if one thing is supposed to be a translation between mediums of two things.

Hence, when Denethor races for miles while on fire to jump off the pinnacle of Minas Tirith (look out beloooow), fans protest not so much that this is impractical and illogical, but that it is different from the book's events, which are far more believable.

They met up with Eomer and company on the fourth day. The vast bulk of that 135 was done in three days time.

Nothing that has been said changes the basic human anatomy or physiology. Glycogen supplies muscles and the muscles must be trained over long periods of time to store glycogen. Nothing that has been said gets around that basic fact of reality.

Okay, let's get mathematical about this. The average mortal human running speed is about 15 miles an hour. Faster runners can achieve faster speeds, but let's stay with 15 mph. Discounting for the moment the need for sustenance and rests, running at the average 15 miles per hour, one could achieve 135 miles' distance in nine hours of solid running.

Obviously, mortal humans cannot keep up a constant speed of running. Let's say, for more than 15 minutes, or one quarter of an hour at a time. Multiplying nine hours by four, we can surmise that 36 intervals of 15 minutes at a time running at 15 miles an hour would achieve the same distance as 9 hours of solid running.

Now let us allot 72 hours (three days) and not count the extended "day four" period of time during which the Three Hunters meet Eomer. Multiplying 72 by 4, we find that there are a total of 288 quarter-hour periods in the span of three 24-hour days. Therefore, the Three Hunters need only have spent nine percent of their journeying time running at a constant speed of 15 miles an hour for fifteen minutes at a time.

To be merciful, we could cut the periods of running down to 10 minutes' time. The distance could then be achieved with 54 intervals running 15 miles an hour, or only about one-fifth of the alloted time of 72 hours.

To be further merciful (accounting for the time(s) of rest and sleep), let's only allot 60 hours. That's 240 periods of 15 minutes each running at 15 miles an hour for ten minutes at a time. Thus requiring only 23% of the time to be used to run.

On the negative side, there were breaks to find tracks and breaks for rest and sustenance.

But if we are searching for a naturalistic explanation for an otherwise improbable deed, we must also account for the hardiness of the races of men, elves and dwarves, and for the otherworldly virtue of the Elvish waybread.

Let me know if you have objections to my math...I'm not above simple errors, but I used a calculator and double-checked my figures, and as a university business student, I have a pretty good background in college math.