Denethor's plunge

[Sauron the White]

A very good reply Alatar - and in fine spirit and I appreciate that.

My point is simply that ALL OF US - you, me, the whole bunch of us, willingly suspend our disbelief for something we are willing to invest ourselves in. Its easy. And without it, much of literature and film would fall flat on its collective face.

Sidebar anecdote where I can talk about my kids---- my daughter - who is 30 - gave me the film TALLADEGA NIGHTS to watch the other day. She knows I hate contemporary silly comedies but said this one "was really funny". So I watched it and felt it was one of the worst films I had ever seen. She was highly offended when I told her. I reminded her of a scene where the characters explain that they have stripped all the sponsor decals off the racecar because not a single sponsor is still supporting them. Its the ME car since only they are behind it. Fine. But less than a minute later the car is revealed positively covered with dozens, perhaps scores of sponsor decals. When I mentioned this I was told I was making too much of it and I should just go with it.

And she was right. To enjoy that film, I had to willingly suspend my disbelief a little. Okay - I had to willingly suspend my disbelief a great deal. But I never liked it from the very start, was unwilling to invest myself into it, and thus every flaw stood out like a sore thumb.

I am not going to go on some Will Ferrell fan site and start bashing the movie. That would be pointless.

Does any of this make sense? Is my point coming across at all? This is a great site. But the smugness and air of superiority some of the True Believers have regarding the movies is a bit much given their own altar of worship. Your point about sacred cows it would appear is much the same.

[Quempel]

We should just call Mythbusters and let Adam and Jamie sort it all out.

It's a fantasy book and a fantasy film. No ring can actually make people disappear. Neither are there gaint eagles flying around with short hairy footed people in their claws. Hey maybe in a fantasy world people can run 145 miles in a day, and a man on fire can run up three flights of stairs through the woods and over the hill only to jump off a cliff. Its a fantasy. Not real. Both the book and the movie.

And for the record freezing someone in carbonite isn't real either. Nor are 50 foot apes.

[Knight of Gondor]

Aragorn was the greatest of living men, of a kind seldom seen in Middle-Earth, even in the third age. It is improbable that a regular man could run the distance he ran. Far more improbable that an eighty-something man could! But he was of the race of Numenor. Legolas was Elf-kind, that does not die. Gimli was of the hardy mountain-folk, a dwarf. None of these can modern science tell us anything about.

This is not a NORMAL world they live in. The sun is a vessel of light that sails overhead. A star is actually a Silmaril kindled on the breast of Elwing, who bore it to Earendil the mariner.

In reality, the dead cannot linger because of a curse pronounced by living man. No spell can hold a door closed in today's world, and as yet, no cloak is available to shield the body from the sight of enemies.

We don't go to Tolkien's world to read the ordinary. We go to read the extraordinary. Of course, this is not a blank check to superimpose an alternate reality whenever necessary. If the Three Hunters were more hardy in achieving their journey, it is not a dues ex machina to say this is fantasy. (Even Eomer was astounded at their deed, showing that there are still standards of performance which the Three Hunters surpassed.) It is simply an alternate world where extraordinary people do extraordinary things.

And if you simply must persist in dietary nitpicking, may I point out the unknown factor of the content of glycogen in lembas? Recall, without lembas, Frodo and Sam would have laid down to die long before achieving their mission.

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor.... thank you for your post which proves in bold capital letters just my point. Many people here revel in some perverse delight in attacking the Jakcosn films while defending to the death every single word of the books. They use deductive reasoning, logic, calculations, common sense, mathematics, and any other device they can employ to make the films look bad. Fine. But when it comes to the books, they put on the cloak of the True Believer and act as if they are defending the Word of the Lord from infidels.

When you attack the films that is fair game. When other attack the books that is nitpicking. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

I thought we were done on this topic yesterday when alatar and I appeared to reach a very acceptable accomodation and understanding. But if you want to go again, I will oblige you.

In your post you did exactly what I predicted some would do to justify the feat of running 135 miles in 3 days without any training. Here is what I posted yesterday asking how a Mr. Andy Jones could run over 100 miles in one day.

And what did Mr. Andy Jones do to train for this amazing feat which seems to stand by itself in all of humankind? Was he merely motivated? Was he pursuing something the gave him god-like abilities? Did he take some pills, magic foodstuffs, or drugs giving him the power of a comic book superhero to do things beyond the abilities of mere mortals? Was he a member of some powerful race of beings whose physical abilities defying his seemingly human shell of a body?

Your explaination uses several of these to explain how it worked in LOTR. Ray Charles could have seen this coming.

In point of fact, I said in the beginning that I could buy the idea of Legolas performing this feat given the extraordinary physiology of Elves. Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

And now we come to Gimli. Dwarves may be strong, they may be hardy, they may be tough, and they may be great to have on your side in a fight. But their anatomy and physiology WORK AGAINST THE ABILITY TO RUN. Long distance runners alomst exclusively have very small body frames compared to most of the population. They have longer legs and weaker upper bodies with little upper body muscle mass. They tend to be thin or even skinny. But their leg muscles would shame the average football player. Their physiology and anatomy helps them run. The body of a dwarf- short stunted legs, heavy upper body with lots of muscle mass, is the direct opposite of a runners body. It is foolish and totally contradictory to fact to think tht someone with this body type and no long distance training could run 135 miles in three days... even with your magic drug of lembas.

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

In your post you did exactly what I predicted some would do to justify the feat of running 135 miles in 3 days without any training. Here is what I posted yesterday asking how a Mr. Andy Jones could run over 100 miles in one day.

Four days, and that's assuming that the planet that is Middle Earth turned one every 24 hours. Without a sizeable satellite like our moon, who knows what its rotation would be...

alatar prepares to bring out quantum mechanics to defend to the death (of reason) the works of Tolkien.

In point of fact, I said in the beginning that I could buy the idea of Legolas performing this feat given the extraordinary physiology of Elves. Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

My take on Tolkien's world is that we're running down from concentrated power to the more mundane and pedestrian. Elves leave, the world no longer looks like Lorien, Men live shorter lives (from 900 years to 1/10 that, and when I get the time I will graph the life expectancy curve while noting the outlier that is Elessar), and so everything is not exactly like it is today. And note that superhuman distances, as you say, is subjective. Look at what human kind has done. The Great Wall, the Pyramids, Monday Night Football - these seemingly superhuman creations were created by the hands of average Joe's and Jane's, but they look unbelievable to me, and I have electricity.

Did the warrior messenger that ran the first marathon, Pheidippides, train extensively and wear custom made sneakers? Sure, he may have died after delivering his message, but that was due his seeing the Marathon to Athens bus schedule that would have taken him the same distance in a third of the time for 2 dinars.

And now we come to Gimli. Dwarves may be strong, they may be hardy, they may be tough, and they may be great to have on your side in a fight. But their anatomy and physiology WORK AGAINST THE ABILITY TO RUN. Long distance runners alomst exclusively have very small body frames compared to most of the population. They have longer legs and weaker upper bodies with little upper body muscle mass. They tend to be thin or even skinny. But their leg muscles would shame the average football player. Their physiology and anatomy helps them run. The body of a dwarf- short stunted legs, heavy upper body with lots of muscle mass, is the direct opposite of a runners body. It is foolish and totally contradictory to fact to think tht someone with this body type and no long distance training could run 135 miles in three days... even with your magic drug of lembas.

Four days. And Gimli may not be the sprinter that Jackson purported, but the creature did not tire. He most likely had to continually 'catch up' while the other two Hunters stood around and chatted about Legolas's hair, but still he could stay with them. And it's well known that Dwarves carried secret containers of helium which could be used to inflate their leather jerkins. Legolas obviously towed the floating Gimli behind him like a balloon - if that's not obvious from the text, I just don't know what else to say...

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

You tend to see this trait in humans. Love is blind, and all that. My guess is that if you were to look into some of the other parts of the forum, you might see the same skepticism that you read so much here in regards to the Peter Jackson films.

[Sauron the White]

They met up with Eomer and company on the fourth day. The vast bulk of that 135 was done in three days time.

Nothing that has been said changes the basic human anatomy or physiology. Glycogen supplies muscles and the muscles must be trained over long periods of time to store glycogen. Nothing that has been said gets around that basic fact of reality.

Thank you for pointing out what happens when an untrained runner runs 20 miles - they can drop dead. While doing my six miles this morning I thought of that Marathon soldier and you beat me to it. Now double that and do it for three straight days. Impossible.

But Alatar, again I thank you. You join with others to prove my point. I am not arguing about the Three Hunters in principle. My point has been said again and again that what I am railing against in hypocrisy. Over and over again, this site has been used by the True Believers to bash the Jackson films. They use every manner of argument including, logic, reasoning, their deductive powers, mathematics, philosophy, common sense, physics, science and good old fashioned creative thinking. And god bless all of you for being so smart.

But those same people, when it comes to works of JRRT, have a blind spot that is immense. Yesterday you described it as your own sacred cow.

Regardless if you love the books or if you love the films - and I happen to love both - it takes a deliberate effort to believe in what we love --- its called the willing suspension of disbelief. We all do it. But when its quickly and blindly extended to the books with their holes and faults, but not the films with their holes and faults that is hypocrisy. And that is an ugly mantle to wrap yourself in.

And it's well known that Dwarves carried secret containers of helium which could be used to inflate their leather jerkins. Legolas obviously towed the floating Gimli behind him like a ballon - if that's not obvious from the text, I just don't know what else to say...

That was truly funny. It made me laugh.

[Finduilas]

Could I suggest that the hypocrisy is caused by the fact that since Tolkien created ME, he is able to make the impossible possible, but since PJ is only the director of a movie based of LotR, he is considered by the "True Believers" to have no right in doing such things? Its Tolkiens world. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas can, in his world run that far in that amount of time. Denethor on fire..... well, he didn't.

I don't want to join in on this arguement, but I did want to make an excuse for the hypocrisy(and sure, I'm often a hypocrite...).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Fine. But when it comes to the books, they put on the cloak of the True Believer and act as if they are defending the Word of the Lord from infidels.

And Eru help the person who dares comment the least bit questioningly about Tolkien's style. They'd need at least Harry Potter's Invisibility Cloak for self-defense.

*runs swiftly away--for how many miles or days I won't say--from al's quantum mechanics and the dread horseman*