Denethor's plunge

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor did an excellent job using stills from the movie to show how this feat was not possible given the realities of the physical anatomy.

I wonder if any readers of the book will take into consideration the physical anatomy in calculating the distance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ran in the first part of the TWO TOWERS. Having been a long distance runner most of my life - and that represents 30 years and 60,000 miles of running - I know the fuel that powers muscles and what the body is capable of. When JRRT wrote those scenes it seems as if he merely urged the three to will their bodies to run that long distance despite the anatomical inability of an untrained and inexperienced runner to do so. I might buy the idea that Legolas could do it - Elves being different and all. And I would buy the idea that Aragorn would be in good physical shape from years in the wild but that does NOT translate into running. And as for Gimli - that is hopeless.

But there it is in the book - all three run vast distances despite the physical realities.

So lets use the same logical scales and deductive reasoning processes when we criticize things shall we? What is good for the goose - in this case the targeted whipping boy of Peter Jacksons films - is good for the gander - the beloved and cherished Holy Word of JRRT.

Forgive me for being a wise guy but this is the kind of thing that rankles me to no end.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Knight of Gondor did an excellent job using stills from the movie to show how this feat was not possible given the realities of the physical anatomy.

Not sure to what you are referring.

I wonder if any readers of the book will take into consideration the physical anatomy in calculating the distance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ran in the first part of the TWO TOWERS.

How far did they run? At what average mph did they run? What is the longest/fastest some human ran today? Also, what is the limiting factor in running? Does it have something to do with lactic acid or another waste product? Could lembas and/or a difference in the percentage of atmospheric oxygen help the equation (Isn't the size of insects related to the amount of oxygen available?)?

Surely someone can do the math to save the Master's honor.

And as for Gimli - that is hopeless.

Is that why PJ had him rolling most of the time?

[Sauron the White]

Surely someone can do the math to save the Master's honor.

Surely someone can perform leaps of imaginative logic and creative thinking to show just how far the Faithful will go to justify anything written by the Master.

But I do welcome the discussion. Lets just keep it grounded to what is physically possible. Will and motivation have not a darn thing to do with muscles and the ability to run lengthy distances.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Surely someone can perform leaps of imaginative logic and creative thinking to show just how far the Faithful will go to justify anything written by the Master.

I do the same when I'm making my point...

But I do welcome the discussion. Lets just keep it grounded to what is physically possible. Will and motivation have not a darn thing to do with muscles and the ability to run lengthy distances.

I found here that one Andy Jones ran 100 miles in 12 hours 5 minutes and 43 seconds. The list does not state whether he was a human, dwarf or elf.

I may have this wrong, but was it four days from the 'burial of Boromir' to the meeting of Eomer and about 45 leagues or 135 miles (I searched the Encyclopedia of Arda and the Barrow Downs for sources)? Now, I can run about 2 miles per day, and by then either I've come upon better options or the pursuit has given up, but, Sauron the White, you are the runner and so would know if it were possible for a non-average runner to run 34 miles a day for four days.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Hell, you can *walk* 34 miles a day if you're in athletic shape. 3mph (not very fast) x 12 hrs = 36 mi/day. This was just a matter of endurance, not speed; and no more remarkable than some historical military forced marches.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Heck, you can *walk* 34 miles a day if you're in athletic shape. 3mph (not very fast) x 12 hrs = 36 mi/day. This was just a matter of endurance, not speed; and no more remarkable than some historical military forced marches.

But the criticism will be that this was not level even ground and that Aragorn et al had to track their quarry and make interesting conversation while maintaining average speed.

[Sauron the White]

And what did Mr. Andy Jones do to train for this amazing feat which seems to stand by itself in all of humankind? Was he merely motivated? Was he pursuing something the gave him god-like abilities? Did he take some pills, magic foodstuffs, or drugs giving him the power of a comic book superhero to do things beyond the abilities of mere mortals? Was he a member of some powerful race of beings whose physical abilities defying his seemingly human shell of a body?

Again, I crack wise.

Mr. Jones, like every single long distance runner in the history of the world, trained. He trained for long periods of time. Daily for months, most likely years. He trained putting in countless miles - check that - he counted them all right - and did the math.

Think of it this way. An athlete who trains for a marathon - 26 miles - has a mathematical formula which calculates his ability to store and use a substance called glycogen into the muscles. Think of a car and think of gasoline and you have an idea. Rule of thumb is this: if you want to run 26 miles at one time, you need to acclimate your body to comfortably run 10.5 miles each day for no less than 12 weeks. For almost everyone it would take at least another 3 months to work up to that 12 week level. That is six months of training to do a 26 mile marathon.

Some people can do it with a little less, some with a little more - but that is the average and formula the long distance running literature generally subscribes to.

And then that marathon runner, having run their 26 miles, goes home and sacks out for a few days recovering and nursing their body.

Now you tell me about running 135 miles over three days without any training.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Now you tell me about running 135 miles over three days without any training.

And yet it moves...

To my comfort, in a world of Balrogs, Endless Stairs, Wizards and Rings of Power, we established that it is *possible* for someone to run 135 miles in four days. Could I do it? No. But is it a 1000 miles in four days? No.

Aragorn was called by Gandalf something like 'the greatest huntsmen and traveler of this age.' He was very long-lived and so like but not like us. The deed, running that far with elf and dwarf in tow (of whose physiology we know little to nothing), was thought to be extreme by others. So, when reading the text, I saw this as a feat superhuman but not ridiculously so, and so did not skip a beat when reading it. Unlike when Peter Jackson has Faramir send calvary against Osgiliath with entrenched orcs with bows.

As for new quibbling, you might want to check out the distances covered from the Paths of the Dead to Minas Tirith. That dwarfs this event.

[Sauron the White]

Alatar -- none of that changes the physical demands of supplying the muscles with glycogen. The greatest car in the world, product of the best enginering, design and manufacturing, cannot travel without gasoline. A car designed to travel with a top speed of 100 mph cannot go 200 mph no matter who is pushing down on the pedals.

Running has little to do with motivation or urgency. It has a great deal to me with the mechanics of the human body and the physical laws which govern it.

To a world used to comic books, superheroes, Chinese fighters who can balance on 200 foot pine tree limbs, and other fantasies, perhaps the run of the Three Hunters is believable.

My point is a simple one.

Many Tolkien book purists take great delight in bashing the Jackson films for every little thing they can think of that defies rigid logic. This Denethor plunge is but one example. On the previous page, Knight of Gondor uses several film stills to show just how far this distance is and concludes he could not make that run in less than three minutes. He concludes it would be impossible. And everybody piles on posting humorous witicisms about what a horses *** Peter Jackson is for showing it like this.

But when it comes to their precious book - the True Believers march in lockstep and will trot out any number of hoops and jump through them when challenged.
At that time, creative thinking, imaginative reasoning and plain old fashioned "its a fantasy for heavens sake" take over.

I see this as hypocrisy.

I could tell you about cases of people catching on fire and running several blocks to get help. I personaly know of a six year old girl whose dress caught on fire and she ran four blocks to her house causing burns on a majority of her body and nearly died. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And she was not a Numenorean or Elve or anyone with special powers.

I could tell you about the monks in Asia who burned themselves alive and amazingly kept their composure, not crying out or even twitching for sevral minutes while they were consumed. That took a will power and physical control that seems to defy logic and reason. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And they were not Numenoreans or Elves or anyone with special powers.

The point is this, in the film, yes we see several other scenes of the aproach to the tombs of the kings and can calculate how far it is, the number of stairs, degree of inclines, etc. Knight of Gondor showed this completely in his series of still on page one of this very thread. But in the film we see Denethor catching on fire, running out of the crypt and then a few seconds on the rampway before he takes the plunge.

I think this is called "willing suspension of disbelief". It is evident in films beyond LOTR. And it is evident in the LOTR book also.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Lets just remember that.