Denethor's plunge

[alatar]

Rethinking the movies a bit, I now have yet another theory regarding Denethor's flaming plunge:

• Denethor was of Númenórean blood.
• The Nazgûl presumedly were as well.
• On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie."
• Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm...
• Maybe Númenóreans impart fire resistance to their clothing?
• Isildur wasn't affected by the heat of the glede Ring nor the fact that he stood inside an active volcano, so there is precedent.
• Gandalf sure had a long time to talk with Aragorn, and it can be assumed that the two shared much information.
• Gandalf shoos Aragorn away "Swords are no more use here!" when facing the Balrog in Moria. Did Gandalf know that Aragorn may have been able to fight Roggie, a creature of flame? Anyway...
• Gandalf gets owned by the Witch-King. Shortly thereafter, Gandalf attacks the crazed Denethor, who was obviously crazy as he was of Númenórean blood and was going to try to immolate himself and his son anyway. Might have been those tomatoes.
• Gandalf does seem to use what's available.

So we have Gandalf unable to fight the Witch-King, who is flying around Minas Tirith making a mess of the defense. He has Denethor, crazed and covered in oil. Gandalf knows much and uses what's available. Flame drove the Nazgûl from Weathertop; it may work here as well. Denethor knows, somewhere inside his head, that flame really won't hurt him.

A few well-placed knocks to the head - Gandalf rebooting and 'aiming' the Steward - and suddenly we have Denethor running for the edge. "Denethor, son of Ecthelion II, Steward of Gondor, do your duty and go out to meet the Black Captain in aerial combat. The flames about you will not harm you. Go and meet whatever fate awaits you..."

This explains why Denethor's guards and entourage do not protest; their Lord is going to fight the Black Captain from whom all have fled - even Gandalf.

It wasn't realized until later that Denethor couldn't see worth a wit, and so dove out at rooster changing its perch.

[MatthewM]

A comical post alatar, and I have to say I am glad this topic was brought back on subject as I kept dismissing checking the new posts because of the side-topics that plagued it for a bit.

I wonder if PJ realizes that Denethor's fiery plunge was one of the worst changes he made to the story?

The real story, in the books, is brilliant and naturally much, much, much better. You really feel sadness for Denethor in the books, yet in the movie this feeling is almost completely absent. It truly is a pity!

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by alatar

On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie."

Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm...

Hate to burst your bubble, but...in the pull-away shot, there's only eight Nazgul chasing Arwen. See for yourself. (Granted, all nine are later at the Ford, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

Hate to burst your bubble, but...in the pull-away shot, there's only eight Nazgul chasing Arwen. See for yourself. (Granted, all nine are later at the Ford, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.)

Bursting my bubble? My good sir, you simply just make my case even more watertight. Now we know that there's a clothing store on the west side of the Ford in which Torchie was shopping.

And do you know from which - theatrical or EE version - the screen shot was captured.?

[Knight of Gondor]

The shot was present in both, although the screencaps site has all the extended shots, leading me to believe they're all from the EE.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by FotR script

EXT. PINE FOREST -- DAY

The white horse charges through a Pine Forest. Suddenly 2
Galloping Ringwraiths emerge from the trees behind! 2 more
Ringwraiths slide in from different directions to join the
chase. Arwen grits her teeth...urges the white horse to
greater speed.

CUT TO:

EXT. THE EAST ROAD -- DAY

The white horse speeds out of the pine trees...the 4
ringwraiths close behind PAN ONTO: 2 more ringwraiths
galloping down the hillside! AERIAL SHOT: 3 MORE RINGWRAITHS
enter frame from different directions...a total of 9
RINGWRAITHS now pursuing Frodo and Arwen! CLOSE ON: Panting
head of the WHITE ELVEN HORSE.

ARWEN
Noro lim, Asfaloth!

The script says that there are to be Nine. Will have to relisten to PJ's commentary to see if he notes the issue. Note that "Noro lim, Asfaloth" in elvish means roughly, "We were limited to a total of nine horses in this shot, Asfaloth."

Originally Posted by RotK script

CLOSE ON: With a ROAR, DENETHOR SNATCHES a FLAMING TORCH ...
and HURLS it at the PYRE!

WHOOSH! The PYRE IGNITES!

ANGLE ON: GANDALF GALLOPS toward the PYRE, knocking DENETHOR
to his FEET ... PIPPIN LEAPS from SHADOWFAX onto the BURNING
PYRE!

With a desperate strength, PIPPIN pushes FARAMIR off the
BURNING PYRE ... they tumble down the BUNDLES of WOOD, onto
the FLOOR! PIPPIN douses FLAMES on FARAMIR'S clothing.

DENETHOR SCREAMS with RAGE!

DENETHOR
No! Do not take my son from me!

DENETHOR leaps ACROSS THE PYRE, RIPPING and TUGGING at
PIPPIN! FIRE quickly spreads up DENETHOR'S OIL-SOAKED BACK as
he hauls PIPPIN off FARAMIR!

ANGLE ON: SHADOWFAX rears up and STRIKES at DENETHOR who
falls back onto the PYRE .

CLOSE ON: DENETHOR . . . he looks into his SON'S eyes . . . for a
BRIEF MOMENT SANITY returns.

DENETHOR (cont'd)
(whisper)
Faramir . . .

ANGLE ON: FLAMES begin to ENGULF DENETHOR . . .

CLOSE ON: GANDALF pulls PIPPIN to safety . . . they look in
HORROR as . . .

SUDDENLY! DENETHOR lurches off the PYRE! Now a SCREAMING,
unguided BALL OF FLAME, he runs across the CHAMBER,
disappearing out of the door!
(CONTINUED)

Final Revision - October, 2003 107.
CONTINUED: ( 2 )


CANDALF
(grimly)
So passes Denethor, Son of Ecthelion.

CUT TO:

EXT. MINAS TIRITH - DAY

DENETHOR runs across the WHITE COURT atop MINAS TIRITH ...
and PLUMMETS straight over the 700 FOOT SHEER DROP into the
FLAMING CITY below!

With that many capitalized words and exclamation marks, you can clearly see why the scene was a winner!