Lord of Gravity

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

It seems to me that the logical conclusion a 7th Age Tolkienist must reach, barring any "outside influences" from the 1st Century of our present era, is the Nordic world view with its code of honor and dark, cold, windblown skies, and Ragnarok over the horizon.

Why is this pesimism the logical conclusion? And would it take precedence over the required estel on behalf of Men? The Athrabeth puts great emphasis on the role of good Men in fulfilling Eru's design, so I would say the contrary would be true.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Why is this pesimism the logical conclusion? And would it take precedence over the required estel on behalf of Men? The Athrabeth puts great emphasis on the role of good Men in fulfilling Eru's design, so I would say the contrary would be true.

You will recall from The Silmarillion that "good men" were a rarity even in the First Age. Only three Houses of Men could stake claim to the epithet. The Akallebêth shows that the greatest of the Good Men were prone to great evil.

Those Men who had never mixed with the Eldar were surely less likely to become "good men" than those who had. Throughout the history of Middle Earth, "good men" are the exception rather than the rule. They are always Northern, which is an interesting aspect of Tolkien's set-up that deserves discussion in its own right.

Anyway, as Tolkien shows, Men tend to forget, unless constantly reminded, about such personages as Eru and the particularities of the Valar. Therefore, the best, that is the Northern line of men, loses the bedrock for its code of honor but keeps the code because it makes sense in terms of the hard life they live. Death comes quickly. Winter bites deeply. The laws of bloodshed and vengeance take primacy. Thus the pessimism of a brutal world.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

They are always Northern, which is an interesting aspect of Tolkien's set-up that deserves discussion in its own right.

I believe it is safe to assume that Rohan and Gondor have always been significant havens for such good Men.

Those Men who had never mixed with the Eldar were surely less likely to become "good men" than those who had.

I don't think that propensity towards evil is a must for all Men. Rather, I would expect that, in later ages, when there is no other highly corrupting mythological incarnation of evil, a larger portion of Men would develop desirable character traits.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I believe it is safe to assume that Rohan and Gondor have always been significant havens for such good Men.

You will recall that after Gandalf fell into Khazaddûm with the Balrog, it was Aragorn of Gondor who said, "Then we shall have to do without hope." It is living without hope that is the earmark of the Nordic worldview, making of a dire life - and inevitable death - what one can.

I don't think that propensity towards evil is a must for all Men. Rather, I would expect that, in later ages, when there is no other highly corrupting mythological incarnation of evil, a larger portion of Men would develop desirable character traits.

When has there not been a highly corrupting mythological incarnation of evil, whether real or imagined, throughout the history of the Seven Ages?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

When has there not been a highly corrupting mythological incarnation of evil, whether real or imagined, throughout the history of the Seven Ages?

Well, the Third Age seems to be the last one that had any:

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii, Myths Transformed, HoME X

Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized (but non-human) form.

You will recall that after Gandalf fell into Khazaddûm with the Balrog, it was Aragorn of Gondor who said, "Then we shall have to do without hope."

I believe that the reason for this is the awareness of dealing with far superior foes, another Nordic motive. However, after the Third Age, it is pretty much a level playing field between good and evil, so no such despair would be called for.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, the Third Age seems to be the last one that had any...... I believe that the reason for this is the awareness of dealing with far superior foes, another Nordic motive. However, after the Third Age, it is pretty much a level playing field between good and evil, so no such despair would be called for.

The incipient challenge of this thread's discussion, as established in the first post, is that we are to presume that the stories of Middle Earth as presented by Tolkien, are point of fact. Thus anything from known history that contradicts the assertions laid out by Tolkien, are not allowable. Therefore, Sauron must be accepted as the last great corrupting mythological figure. Morgoth is banished; all that is left is the taint of Morgoth on all that has been created.

It must be acknowledged that, for the purposes of this discussion, Maiar still are extant and may and will do as is in them to do.

There have been mythologies in which both good and evil Maiar have ensconced themselves throughout the Seven Ages. We may not, for the purposes of this discussion, dismiss them out of hand just because Tolkien is not the recorder of their histories. So we have the Mayan, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Hittite, Hindu, Chinese, Hebrew, Celtic, and last but not least, Nordic myths, and no doubt many others which I have not named.

We may conclude that these myths were engendered and inhabited by Maiar still at loose in Arda; and since they are by and large at odds with those histories recorded by Tolkien, we may conclude that they are filled with lies. Since they are filled with lies, we can deduce that they are in fact inhabited almost exclusively by evil Maiar. Though of less stature than Sauron and Morgoth, these evil Maiar may be concluded to have been Pluto, Set, Murdok, Kumarbis, Lucifer, Surt, and so forth.

Have humans indeed comported themselves well throughout history, whether in servitude to these myths' Maiar or after they have been thrown out in favor of a limited set of myths that are these days called 'world religions'?

Has slavery ever not been part of human history through these last three of the Seven Ages? Has genocide? Conquest? Petty theft? Murder? Sacrificing one's own offspring to the gods - er - excuse me, Maiar? I'm very sorry, but throughout the history of the Seven Ages, there is little evidence to suggest that humans by and large have comported themselves very well at all.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The incipient challenge of this thread's discussion, as established in the first post, is that we are to presume that the stories of Middle Earth as presented by Tolkien, are point of fact. Thus anything from known history that contradicts the assertions laid out by Tolkien, are not allowable.

Although I very much enjoy a debate, it should be noted that this was far from what Tolkien intended with this "imaginative invention", that is, to present some of his apprehension of th world. He didn't put very much effort into synchronizing primary and secondary reality and he didn't expect much of it.

Therefore, Sauron must be accepted as the last great corrupting mythological figure. Morgoth is banished; all that is left is the taint of Morgoth on all that has been created.

It must be acknowledged that, for the purposes of this discussion, Maiar still are extant and may and will do as is in them to do.

I believe you are contradicting yourself, since surely any surviving evil Maia, still interacting with Arda, would definitely qualify as a mythological incarnation of evil - an instance which cannot be accepted based on Tolkien's quote.

We may conclude that these myths were engendered and inhabited by Maiar still at loose in Arda; and since they are by and large at odds with those histories recorded by Tolkien, we may conclude that they are filled with lies.

Some may even accept that all these stories are true, but have not manifested themselves on the material level, but on more subtle ones.

I'm very sorry, but throughout the history of the Seven Ages, there is little evidence to suggest that humans by and large have comported themselves very well at all.

I would say that we evolved even morally. Many things that would have been accepted as normal decades or centuries ago are not so anymore (at least for the average person, disregarding what some politicians do or pass as laws). Human rights have taken great leaps forward, and even if there is much to fear today, there is also much reason for hope. I, for one, am not pessimist, but I hold to the idea that, "if we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves".