High Elves and the Balrogs

[Boromir88]

I refuse to allow Galadriel's greatness to include prowess in battle simply because she fought maybe once or twice in the history of ME~Hammerhand

It doesn't matter how many times we are told Galadriel fought (with a 'blade')...what matters is that we know she could and that she did indeed fight with a 'blade' before. And my understanding that when she fought with a blade (as Raynor has provided with the Unfinished Tales quote) that she was quite good.

I say 'times we are told Galadriel fought' because as CT points out the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn was being 'refashioned', their roles were becoming greater, and not everything was known.

There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn; and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistancies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.~Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It doesn't matter how many times we are told Galadriel fought (with a 'blade')...what matters is that we know she could and that she did indeed fight with a 'blade' before. And my understanding that when she fought with a blade (as Raynor has provided with the Unfinished Tales quote) that she was quite good.

I say 'times we are told Galadriel fought' because as CT points out the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn was being 'refashioned', their roles were becoming greater, and not everything was known.

I'll concede that she had the ability to use a blade. I do believe it is important that she seldom fought, and that she never fought anyone of significance. The reason being that we know little about her physical abilities, so to claim she could best a Balrog or even Glorfindel... or many others, to me, is hypothetical and unfounded.

The roles of Galadriel and Celeborn only became more important because they were two of the few Elven Lords still in charge of a settlement in Middle Earth and because they bore a large degree of power and influence - I can't see many other reasons besides, unless ofcourse Tolkien had some other purpose for the characters.

[CSteefel]

Another possible argument against one of the three Rings like Nenya making a big difference is that Gandalf was wearing one himself. Here you have a Maia pitted against a Maia, but with one holding one of the 3 Rings. To the extent that the contest between the Balrog and Gandalf was a draw, then it would seem the Ring didn't make a large amount of difference.

However...

Perhaps another way to view the contest between Gandalf and the Balrog is that Gandalf did win finally, but that the mortal part of himself (the form he took on coming to Middle Earth) was the casualty. From this interpretation, Gandalf is really made up of two components: the Maiar (that later becomes Gandalf the White) and the human, which suffers heat and cold and injury like the rest of men.

Where this leaves Galadriel or Glorfindel is less clear, but neither seems to have a clearly human form in the same sense that Gandalf has (for example, Glorfindel still appears as young as a spring chicken despite his 6,000 year age, while Gandalf appears more aged, even if he does age slowly).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It must also be remembered that Celebrimbor originally gave the Three Rings of Power only to his High-King, Gil-Galad, and to Galadriel (Gil-Galad then giving one each to Elrond and Cirdan, who in turn gave his to Gandalf). This, I believe, infers the status of Galadriel amongst the Elves.

While there's little doubt about her native power, this I think also was a question of 'legitimacy:' Gil-Galad and Galadriel were the only fully-Elven members of the House of Finwe left in Middle-earth.


Hammerhand: I' think you're confusing the meaning of 'early' and 'late' Balrogs. What folks are trying to say is that Balrogs *in JRRT's early writings* are more numerous and less individually powerful than they would become *in Tolkien's later writings*- not that from an internal perspective Balrogs became more powerful over time.


Canonicity: If we're going to confine ourself to works published before 1973, then the Balrog of Moria is the *only* one. If on the other hand we take the more reasonable approach of trying to deduce from existing writings what Tolkien's considered opinion was, then we see that as late as ca. 1970 Glorfindel's duel was still in effect; and as late as the work on 'Maeglin' Glorfindel and Ecthelion are paired as the great captains of the Hidden City. What we can't do is conclude that the old Tale remains canonical, notwithstanding certain elements of Tuor's journey which would endure: the heraldry of 1917 was gone by 1951, as were (almost certainly) the mechanical dragon-tanks, and any linguistic structure that would allow an Elf to be named "Rog."

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Hammerhand: I' think you're confusing the meaning of 'early' and 'late' Balrogs. What folks are trying to say is that Balrogs *in JRRT's early writings* are more numerous and less individually powerful than they would become *in Tolkien's later writings*- not that from an internal perspective Balrogs became more powerful over time.


Canonicity: If we're going to confine ourself to works published before 1973, then the Balrog of Moria is the *only* one. If on the other hand we take the more reasonable approach of trying to deduce from existing writings what Tolkien's considered opinion was, then we see that as late as ca. 1970 Glorfindel's duel was still in effect; and as late as the work on 'Maeglin' Glorfindel and Ecthelion are paired as the great captains of the Hidden City. What we can't do is conclude that the old Tale remains canonical, notwithstanding certain elements of Tuor's journey which would endure: the heraldry of 1917 was gone by 1951, as were (almost certainly) the mechanical dragon-tanks, and any linguistic structure that would allow an Elf to be named "Rog."

So if the Balrogs were less powerful, would that mean Gothmog was less powerful than Durin's Bane? Furthermore, if there were only seven Balrogs at a time in ME, how come we never hear of any besides Durin's Bane in the third age? and why didn't they help Sauron? Doesn't really make sense to me.

My previous point concerning Fingolfin was solid. If a powerful elf can wound a Valar, why wouldn't one be able to wound or kill a 'later' Balrog? Say for example that Ecthelion fought Durin's Bane, would you conclude that Durin's Bane would triumph? Swap Ecthelion with Glorfindel or Fingolfin, would you draw the same conclusion? Alot of this topic is hypothetical, being that half of the people being debated never fought a Balrog, and most of those that did, fought 'early' Balrogs.

I also think personally, that if there is an elf named "Rog", and it was published, we can only assume it was meant to be - maybe Tolkien, the lawmaker, didn't want a Nordic representation of him? I am not a linguistics expert, it just seems to me that though most of the names in ME have a 'meaning' as such, does it make it obligatory?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

So if the Balrogs were less powerful, would that mean Gothmog was less powerful than Durin's Bane?

No, because Gothmog simply became a 'later' Balrog over the course of Tolkien's life: he appears in the Narn i Chin Hurin (mid-1950's) by name, as High-Captain of Angband and the slayer of Fingon. It's probably fair to say that Tolkien's view of Balrogs' puissance generally was modified by the might he gave Gandalf's foe.


I'ts not the case that there were "seven Balrogs at a time." There were seven, period. They didn't get replaced. Two were killed at Gondolin; during the War odf Wrath "wellnigh all" of them were destroyed, "save some few" who hid themselves deep underground. That particular line in the Silm. actually predates the Lord of the Rings, when there were hordes of the buggers. In any event, it's clear that the Dwarves 'awoke' the Balrog of Moria, so it and any possible other survivors of the Elder Days were presumably in some sort of hibernation, or trapped, or otherwise not in play.

Besides, why would any Balrog serve Sauron? There's no suggestion the one we know about did- it seemed content to spend over a thousand years lurking in Moria and not exerting itself.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Rog: The name never has appeared in print, except in HoME. He's a leftover from a very primitive stage in what would become Sindarin, when it was still called Goldogrin or Gnomish.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

No, because Gothmog simply became a 'later' Balrog over the course of Tolkien's life: he appears in the Narn i Chin Hurin (mid-1950's) by name, as High-Captain of Angband and the slayer of Fingon. It's probably fair to say that Tolkien's view of Balrogs' puissance generally was modified by the might he gave Gandalf's foe.


I'ts not the case that there were "seven Balrogs at a time." There were seven, period. They didn't get replaced. Two were killed at Gondolin; during the War odf Wrath "wellnigh all" of them were destroyed, "save some few" who hid themselves deep underground. That particular line in the Silm. actually predates the Lord of the Rings, when there were hordes of the buggers. In any event, it's clear that the Dwarves 'awoke' the Balrog of Moria, so it and any possible other survivors of the Elder Days were presumably in some sort of hibernation, or trapped, or otherwise not in play.

Besides, why would any Balrog serve Sauron? There's no suggestion the one we know about did- it seemed content to spend over a thousand years lurking in Moria and not exerting itself.

Ahh i understand where you are coming from now, thanks alot for explaining your perspective.

I think its interesting how Ecthelion managed to stay Gothmog with conventional equipment, as did Glorfindel, whereas Gandalf the Maiar was dependent on his hocus pocus to kill Durin's Bane after days of combat.

The lesson in this: Do not mess with an angry Elf.

It leaves many questions unanswered though if we choose to not necessarily include some of Tolkien's earlier work in evalutions.