High Elves and the Balrogs

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I wasn't talking about that, actually. I was referring to the text you quoted earlier in the thread from The Shibboleth of Feanor.

I see; sorry for the blunder. However, I have my doubts that being one of the greatest of the Noldor means she is more powerful in battle than Glorfindel; in my opinion, the title refers more to "political" role and achievements, rather than warrior abilities.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I see; sorry for the blunder. However, I have my doubts that being one of the greatest of the Noldor means she is more powerful in battle than Glorfindel; in my opinion, the title refers more to "political" role and achievements, rather than warrior abilities.

But what about the potent magicks that she has and performed? doesn't that count as "warrior" abillities? the phial, the scrying on sauron, the healing and shrouding fog over the Eorl's men, healing Gandalf, and repelling three waves of attacks... that doesn't count as "warrior" abilities? It seems to me that it is but of more grand scale than a one-on-one bout.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But what about the potent magicks that she has and performed? doesn't that count as "warrior" abillities? the phial, the scrying on sauron, the healing and shrouding fog over the Eorl's men, healing Gandalf, and repelling three waves of attacks... that doesn't count as "warrior" abilities? It seems to me that it is but of more grand scale than a one-on-one bout.

I don't deny that she has some cool tricks; however, that doesn't guarantee she can best Glorfindel in battle.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But what about the potent magicks that she has and performed? doesn't that count as "warrior" abillities? the phial, the scrying on sauron, the healing and shrouding fog over the Eorl's men, healing Gandalf, and repelling three waves of attacks... that doesn't count as "warrior" abilities? It seems to me that it is but of more grand scale than a one-on-one bout.

The last sentence was a good summary, however, i'm inclined to agree with Raynor on the point of her battle "abilities" - somebody made the statement earlier about her achievements being more "political", and that is the basis for the title "greatest". I think it has more to do with her perceptive abilities, strength of mind and will. To arrive at the conclusion that because she was dubbed "greatest" by Tolkien, she is a battle hardened war veteren of unmitigated power (exaggerated) i think is taking what Tolkien said and basing it on practically anything that can have a hierarchy. We have little evidence she could actually fight, and only a few scenarios whereby she is destructive through magic. For me, evidence is against her completely.

[obloquy]

Tolkien uses the same unqualified "greatest" to describe Galadriel as he does to describe Sauron (greatest of Melkor's servants). Please tell us why you refuse to allow Galadriel's greatness to include prowess in battle. It certainly isn't based on anything in the books. As I outlined in my "Sauron vs. Your Mama" thread, Middle-earth battles are more about spiritual stature than anything else. Maybe you can come up with an example of an exception to this rule, but I can't.

[Raynor]

At least on the general level, Galadriel, as an Elven woman, is rather guaranteed to deal some serious damage in battle:

Originally Posted by Aelfwine's Preamble, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X

Indeed, in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.

Edit:
And more specifically, I am reminded of her role in the battle of Alqualonde, as envisioned in the last version of the rebellion of the Noldor, set down in Tolkien's last month of his life:

Originally Posted by The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Part IV of the Unfinished Tales

In Feanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Tolkien uses the same unqualified "greatest" to describe Galadriel as he does to describe Sauron (greatest of Melkor's servants). Please tell us why you refuse to allow Galadriel's greatness to include prowess in battle. It certainly isn't based on anything in the books. As I outlined in my "Sauron vs. Your Mama" thread, Middle-earth battles are more about spiritual stature than anything else. Maybe you can come up with an example of an exception to this rule, but I can't.

I refuse to allow Galadriel's greatness to include prowess in battle simply because she fought maybe once or twice in the history of ME, by "fought" i refer to fighting - whether that includes a degree of spiritual works or sword, i mean a confrontational bout. She may have attacked Dol Guldur and broken its walls... with her power, and yet, has she ever claimed a significant life? not to my recollection. Celeborn led the host against Dol Guldur, whilst Galadriel stood atop a hill and fashioned some devilish hocus pocus.

What can magic do for you in a one on one bout? when there is a scant second between each parry? Not a great deal.

Ecthelion slew 3 Balrogs, and Gothmog (Maiar?) - It was achieved through his sword and helmet. Glorfindel slew a Balrog - He fought with a blade also. The Hammer of Wrath all bore weapons when they collectively slew several Balrogs. Fingolfin wounded the most powerful Valar with a blade. Infact, only Gandalf weaved magic into his combat (that with Durin's Bane) and he was Maiar. Conclusion - it doesn't take a spell to defeat a being of immense "power". It just takes a really skilled combatant.

So though magic may well be a prominent player in battle, in a one on one bout, it has little bearence, in my opinion. It is usually the case that those equipped with great power are also cunning fighters, which is why we associate that power with their battle prowess.

Unfortunately i don't have my books on tap at the moment, so i can't quote anything.

I think that the notion of "power" not being a key weapon in a duel is altogether plausible. So much evidence backs it up, and it is realistic. All of the greatest warriors bore a weapon, was it a means of channeling the "power"? i doubt it. Its just because they were great warriors, nothing more. Maybe with the lack of heroes during the third age, it is harder to determine the gravity of people in ages past. That is my level of thinking anyway, is it totally unbelievable?

[Raynor]

Well, there are other instances when magic was essential in a battle. Finrod and Sauron fought each other in songs of power and Luthien was capable of putting down even Melkor through her song. The valar battled Melkor in the beginning of Arda, and they dealt disastrous damage to the earth, much of which I would attribute to magic, rather than mere weapons.

[obloquy]

I never said anything about Galadriel's magic.

[Boromir88]

I refuse to allow Galadriel's greatness to include prowess in battle simply because she fought maybe once or twice in the history of ME~Hammerhand

It doesn't matter how many times we are told Galadriel fought (with a 'blade')...what matters is that we know she could and that she did indeed fight with a 'blade' before. And my understanding that when she fought with a blade (as Raynor has provided with the Unfinished Tales quote) that she was quite good.

I say 'times we are told Galadriel fought' because as CT points out the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn was being 'refashioned', their roles were becoming greater, and not everything was known.

There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn; and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistancies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.~Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn