High Elves and the Balrogs

[obloquy]

I don't think anyone said she could "crush" a Balrog.

Is it possible to say that Galadriel could equal the Maiar's efforts in power?

Yes, in fact. We have a handy example in Glorfindel, whose duel with a Balrog went much the same as Gandalf's did. His power was actually increased through his reincarnation and recuperation in Aman, and he returned to Middle-earth almost a peer of the Maiar. Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel.

Relevant text from HoMe XII Late Writings:

[Glorfindel] then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.

What, Tolkien? "Spiritual power"? Why, we have never heard of this before!

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I don't think anyone said she could "crush" a Balrog.

Yes, in fact. We have a handy example in Glorfindel, whose duel with a Balrog went much the same as Gandalf's did. His power was actually increased through his reincarnation and recuperation in Aman, and he returned to Middle-earth almost a peer of the Maiar. Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel.

Relevant text from HoMe XII Late Writings:

What, Tolkien? "Spiritual power"? Why, we have never heard of this before!

So if Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel, that means the curse of Mandos hasn't harshly affected her (except for weariness). And wasn't it said that the Eldar diminished in their spiritual powers eventually, or become weary to that effect? And if she was still more powerful than Glorfindel even after his rebirth, that would mean she was the closest to a Maia, right? But then Tolkien is confusing. He says that Galadriel was the mightiest and fairest of all the elves (including the mighty Glorfindel) in the 3rd age. But he seems to suggest that Elrond was inherently more powerful than Galadriel in one of his letters:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel.

Why would you say that?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Why would you say that?

Because of references already posted in this thread. You may believe that Glorfindel, in his enhancement, exceeded what was previously the upper limit of Eldarin power (Luthien, Feanor, Galadriel) but I do not, and can see no support for the idea.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

Tolkien evidently does not share Galadriel's opinion of herself, since "others" in the first sentence appears to include the Elves, and he clearly names only Gandalf as having sufficient spiritual stature. He also becomes confusing at the end, saying that among the other guardians of the Three (other than Galadriel; i.e. Gandalf and Elrond), Elrond is especially capable. Elrond is more capable than Gandalf? I think Tolkien misspoke here, unless he was referring to who would yield the most desirable outcome from becoming the new Lord of the Ring. In which case, power alone is not the only consideration.

Edit: Or, as Morthoron mentioned, he refers to the ring bearers of all ages. Good post.

[Boromir88]

Actually the original quote was taken out of context and not given in full, which greatly alters the meaning of the entire part:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.~Letter 246

To set up the scenario here Tolkien was talking about Frodo claiming the Ring and a hypothetical 'Frodo ringbearer' scenario. He goes onto say that Frodo would not have been able to do much, he would have been taken back to Sauron, tortured and Sauron would have the Ring back. He goes on to say that no mortal could possible beat Sauron for mastery of the Ring. And the only reason Aragorn beat Sauron in the contest with the palantir was because it took place at a distant and Aragorn was the rightful owner.

He then moves onto 'the others' (which like obloquy I assume as Maiar and Elves)...to which he says only Gandalf might be expected to beat Sauron for mastery of the Ring. He then talks about the 'other guardians' of the Elven Rings (which I think he would only be referring to Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf as those are the only ones he mentions).

What's important here is Tolkien doesn't say what he thinks, but what his characters think:

In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord.

He then goes onto say that if Galadriel 'conceived' this herself so did the other Guardians...specially Elrond: If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

This quote is talking about what the bearers felt they could use the One Ring for, and that's why the last part of the quote (which seems to be conveniently left out) is important to the understanding. As he then talks about the 'essential deceit of the Ring.' Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf were all smart enough to know that the Ring was deceiving them with visions of 'supreme power' and were able to reject their own thoughts of using the Ring against Sauron. It has nothing to do with power unless you use it to show why Gandalf was one (if not the) most powerful person on Middle-earth. It is more about what various people thought they could do with the Ring (but the Ring being the evil little deceiver it is fills people with ideas of grandeur and power) and what they could actually do.

[obloquy]

Great post, Boromir88. My reputation button is not functioning, so I have to just tell you here that I appreciate your contribution.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

You may believe that Glorfindel, in his enhancement, exceeded what was previously the upper limit of Eldarin power (Luthien, Feanor, Galadriel) but I do not, and can see no support for the idea.

I wouldn't equate Galadriel being capable of wielding the ring with her being more powerful than Glorfindel in battle. In letter #246, Tolkien talks even about Frodo possibly becoming capable of wielding the ring, should his will be given enough time

Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills.

However, even if it occurred, I doubt that Frodo (without his ring) would be more powerful than Glorfindel, in battle, since his will (which is implied to be the one ingredient necessary for controlling the ring) and the battle skills of a hobbit would simply not suffice to take down an Elf Lord (or a balrog, for that matter).

Originally Posted by obloquy

Great post, Boromir88. My reputation button is not functioning, so I have to just tell you here that I appreciate your contribution.

I got the same problem; instead of clicking the reputation button, I opened it in a new window (or tab) and I was able to rep.

[obloquy]

I wouldn't equate Galadriel being capable of wielding the ring with her being more powerful than Glorfindel in battle.

I wasn't talking about that, actually. I was referring to the text you quoted earlier in the thread from The Shibboleth of Feanor.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I wasn't talking about that, actually. I was referring to the text you quoted earlier in the thread from The Shibboleth of Feanor.

I see; sorry for the blunder. However, I have my doubts that being one of the greatest of the Noldor means she is more powerful in battle than Glorfindel; in my opinion, the title refers more to "political" role and achievements, rather than warrior abilities.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

...And if she was still more powerful But he seems to suggest that Elrond was inherently more powerful than Galadriel in one of his letters:
[/I]

I think Elrond doesn't get enough positive recognition. Although everyone knows he is the son of Earendil and descendant of Melian and Thingol - he is relatively young as far as the history of ME goes, or rather, he has much to be compared to. He is never really given a "the fairest" "the strongest" or the "the wisest" title, moreso that he's good with wounds, is clued up on topical issues and has alot of experience in which he can relate situations to.

Personally, from the day i read his name in the Hobbit, i thought he was a fantastic character, but thats opinion. I see no reason why he shouldn't be considered "very powerful" His family tree is impressive is it not? and we all know how important family ties are in Middle Earth. He was present at a fair few of the decisive battles, Last Alliance for one, i apologise for not having any references with me at the present.

So though it never really states it, i see no reason why Elrond's power cannot be close or beyond Galadriel's. A positive in regard to Galadriel is that she has always been active with her power, the number of quotes in this thread prove that, whereas Elrond, taking into consideration his age and location, does not gain as much recognition. I hope that makes sense, i feel like i'm dying lol

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

So if Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel, that means the curse of Mandos hasn't harshly affected her (except for weariness). And wasn't it said that the Eldar diminished in their spiritual powers eventually, or become weary to that effect?

Galadriel's diminishment would not have occured until after the destruction of the One Ring and her going into the West (as she herself prophesies in her dialogue with Frodo in Lothlorien); nevertheless, as I stated previously, she demolishes the walls of Dol Guldur after the One Ring was destroyed, which represents an act of immense innate power above and beyond being a bearer of Nenya, which would have lost its potency with the One Ring's demise.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But then Tolkien is confusing. He says that Galadriel was the mightiest and fairest of all the elves (including the mighty Glorfindel) in the 3rd age. But he seems to suggest that Elrond was inherently more powerful than Galadriel in one of his letters:

There is no confusion really; I believe you might be misreading Tolkien's quote. He is stating that Galadriel believed herself capable of wielding the One Ring, but also the other guardians of the Three (that would be, at various times, Gil-Galad, Cirdan, Gandalf and Elrond) could also be capable of wielding the Ring as well, and of those other guardians, Elrond in particular. I don't believe the statement gives precedence to either Galadriel or Elrond.

It must also be remembered that Celebrimbor originally gave the Three Rings of Power only to his High-King, Gil-Galad, and to Galadriel (Gil-Galad then giving one each to Elrond and Cirdan, who in turn gave his to Gandalf). This, I believe, infers the status of Galadriel amongst the Elves.