The Hobbit in July 2007?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Yes, well, as Chesterton pointed out in the excerpt I gave earlier:

, its a habit, but its not a sin. People do lots of things which are bad for them. Smoking is also a very relaxing & quite pleasurable indulgence - & I note in passing that the guy who invented jogging died from a heart attack while out jogging. I further note in passing that 100% of non smokers die.

I am not quite certain why you keep including that Chesterton quote in the conversation, as he was neither an authority on the subject, nor entirely subjective. The man died in 1936 and obviously had no conception of the addictive nature of nicotine or the proven health risks. Needless to say, cocaine, morphine and heroin were legal in his lifetime (not even listed as controlled substances until WWI). G.K. might have had a Coca-Cola or two prior to 1903 laced with cocaine (an advertised ingredient up to that point).

I think that smoking for most long-term users is no longer a habit or a 'pleasurable indulgence' (that would include myself and my pack-a-day jones). I cannot merely smoke a single cigarette in a day without significant discomfort; whereas, I can drink several porters in a single sitting and go for weeks without another (which would be disconcerting and unnecessary perhaps, but quite doable).

However, that being said I do not believe that removing pipe-smoking from The Hobbit or adding warnings is warranted as the story takes place in another age altogether. I despise attempts to homogenize literature or film due to the expedience of political correctness, particularly in the film industry which seems to be picking and choosing its ethics, which in itself is unethical.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think that smoking for most long-term users is no longer a habit or a 'pleasurable indulgence' (that would include myself and my pack-a-day jones). I cannot merely smoke a single cigarette in a day without significant discomfort; whereas, I can drink several porters in a single sitting and go for weeks without another (which would be disconcerting and unnecessary perhaps, but quite doable).

But I can. I smoke the odd cheap cigar as & when but can go for days, even weeks, without - & I was the when I smoked a pipe. Many people, unlike you, cannot go for weeks (even hours) without a drink. But this is not the point - the point is the one Chesterton made - smoking is being treated as a 'sin' not simply a potentially 'dangerous' activity. I've seen people in cars waiting at traffic lights with their engines running wafting away cigarette smoke from passing smokers - all the while churning out poison from their exhaust pipes, & mother's pushing their children along the street at rush hour with their faces at the same height as those exhaust pipes getting angry because someone fifty feet away is smoking a cig. Banning smoking from movies, or forcing movie goers to watch anti-smoking adverts because some smokers die from their habit (& most of them die in their 70's, 80's & 90's when they were going to die of something anyway) is as irrational as banning cars or inflicting dangerous driving adverts showing bodies scattered over the highway because cars kill people.

I'm not advocating smoking at all. Its none of my business whether or not people indulge. Yes, its an indulgence that may well kill you before something else does - but that's all one can say for it - 'cos something is going to kill you.

[Lalwendë]

In modern times, things are only labelled as 'sins' as it makes it that much easier for Governments to make lots of tax out of them. That's why sex is no longer a sin but eating lovely greasy chips out of newspaper or smoking a ciggie is. You cannot tax the former but you can tax the latter. And what's more you can get all self-righteous about it too.

There is no tax in Middle-earth so smoking, drinking ale or eating lard is no sin.

The day they put health warnings on films at the cinema will be the day I start looking round for the poster of Big Brother that I've got to salute. I note that it was the evil venture capitalist/despot that was Saruman who also carted off all the pipeweed in The Shire.

[Sauron the White]

from Bethberry

Actually, I'm waiting to hear that the casting for The Hobbit will be colour blind. I can just imagine the dilemma between choosing an Asian actor for Bilbo and Blacks for the dwarves, or a Black actor for Bilbo and Asian ones for the dwarves. Or maybe they will make all the dwarves female actors, but of course we'd never know it. I'm sure that if they made Smaug green, leprecauns would object, so I suspect that is out for Smaug.

21st century political correctness has already tainted the dramatic presentation of JRRT's works. In the LOTR musical which played last year in Toronto, the role of Boromir was played by a Black actor - Dion Johnstone. I cannot even use the politically correct term and refer to him as an African-American because he may have been Canadian.
Not only was it a bit jarring to the eye but the role was poorly written and not one of the better aspects of the play. I saw the same actor a few weeks ago in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD and he was very good as Tom Robinson.

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

from Bethberry


21st century political correctness has already tainted the dramatic presentation of JRRT's works. In the LOTR musical which played last year in Toronto, the role of Boromir was played by a Black actor - Dion Johnstone. I cannot even use the politically correct term and refer to him as an African-American because he may have been Canadian.
Not only was it a bit jarring to the eye but the role was poorly written and not one of the better aspects of the play. I saw the same actor a few weeks ago in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD and he was very good as Tom Robinson.

Yes, and apparently the latest stage version of LOTR had black Hobbit extras. It is annoying, especially when Tolkien specified no such thing. Reminds me of that horrid Robin Hood series we had last year; despite being set in England in the Middle Ages, there were Muslims and Africans all over the place. There's a time and a place for multiculturalism and neither of these were it.

and will Sting look the same?

I can't imagine why not.

[Elmo]

Ummmmmmm didn't the harfoots have some kind of brown skin? I can't remember to save my life what word Tolkien used to describe them but I'm sure that's what he said. Maybe not black but I'm sure not all the hobbits in the Shire would have been white.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Ummmmmmm didn't the harfoots have some kind of brown skin? I can't remember to save my life what word Tolkien used to describe them but I'm sure that's what he said. Maybe not black but I'm sure not all the hobbits in the Shire would have been white.

In the Prologue of LotR Tolkien describes the Harfoots as "browner of skin" and goes on to say that they were "the most normal and representative variety of Hobbit, and far the most numerous".
I'm hazarding a guess though that contrast in skin tones between Harfoots and the fairer Fallohides is not that marked - more of a Northern/Southern European contrast. IIRC no Hobbit is described as "swarthy" which seems to be Tolkien's word of choice to describe persons who are markedly darker than, say, the average person of Bree or Gondor.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That's why sex is no longer a sin but eating lovely greasy chips out of newspaper or smoking a ciggie is. You cannot tax the former but you can tax the latter. And what's more you can get all self-righteous about it too.

I suppose that is why some countries have opted to legalise houses of prostitution. Would that be a Value Added Tax? What surcharges would apply? A bit difficult for tourists to carry any goods home and then claim a rebate though.

Originally Posted by Lal

I note that it was the evil venture capitalist/despot that was Saruman who also carted off all the pipeweed in The Shire.

I believe that in capitalist terms that would be a cartel, no? Or would it be a monopoly? I can never tell the difference between one which is supposed to be acceptable and one which is a no-no. And then there are non-competes, which are the blackest things of all apparently.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

In the LOTR musical which played last year in Toronto, the role of Boromir was played by a Black actor - Dion Johnstone. I cannot even use the politically correct term and refer to him as an African-American because he may have been Canadian.

I think the producers missed a Great White Moment there. I was expecting them to cast Inuit actors as the hobbits. Think how that would have increased the Canadian Content, to say nothing about the significant thematic implications.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Ian Holm was a good Bilbo, but he played Bilbo at 111 so I don't know...the public would be looking for someone like him...and I would NOT watch the Hobbit without Serkis and McKellen. ...well maybe without Mckellen. and will Sting look the same?