High Elves and the Balrogs

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Why would it be so unbelievable? After all, Fingolfin was able to face in single combat even Melkor, and inflict of him a permanent wound. Feanor alone fought undismayed for long with several balrogs

Well, you know, Gandalf was a Maia. He was killed in battling with just one Balrog. Maia are suppose to be above the Eldar (that is why it's so unbelievable).

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Well, you know, Gandalf was a Maia. He was killed in battling with just one Balrog. Maia are suppose to be above the Eldar (that is why it's so unbelievable).

The physical manifestation of a Balrog could obviously sustain damage (Gandalf uses the word 'smote' as in strike when speaking of how he defeated Durin's Bane); therefore, it is entirely possible for an Elf of Ecthelion's stature to defeat a Balrog, or more than one given favorable circumstances. Consider also that Ecthelion was an exceptional Noldo of Valinor in full flower of youth, whereas Gandalf, even as a Maia, was constrained in the mortal body of an old man (however vigorous). Remember as well that Morgoth himself was wounded badly by Fingolfin, and Gil-Galad and Elendil defeated Sauron, and one would have to admit that Morgoth and Sauron were indeed more powerful than a Balrog.

[Raynor]

When they realised they are facing a balrog, Gandalf deplored that he was already weary, from the fight with the orcs and his contest of magic at the door of the Mazarbul Chamber.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's also worth noting that none of the three survived the encounter.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

It's also worth noting that none of the three survived the encounter.

aye thats a solid point, but what about Rog in the fall of Gondolin, apparently he and his fellows defeated a few of them there... it doesn't specify that they died via the Balrog.

I never really dwelled on the fact that all the key charcters that fought them died - Glorfindel died in a similar circumstance to Gandalf, in that he was dragged down. Ecthelion was already mortally wounded when he took on Gothmog, and died in the fountain with him - Nearly brought a tear to my eye reading that for the first time!

[Galin]

The Fall of Gondolin from The Book of Lost Tales concerns the early version of Balrogs.

Tolkien never updated this tale in long form beyond that which was published in Unfinished Tales. I see no great reason to assume a character named 'Rog' killed even one Balrog in the theoretical 'rest of' the version begun decades after The Book of Lost Tales was abandoned.

If there was to be no more than seven then the Balrogs arguably slain by Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gandalf count for three. And probably some were to be slain in the War of Wrath.

[Boromir88]

Galin, already mentioned this, lets not mix two different periods of time here where Tolkien began altering and changing his Balrogs.

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs)~Gorthaur

I think this is where the 'unbelievability' is coming from. As when Tolkien first started writing about his Balrogs, they were an entire race of their own. There were 'armies' and 'hosts' of Balrogs and they were much weaker than what the Tolkien's 'final' Balrogs became.

I don't know when Tolkien decided to switch things around, but eventually he made the Balrogs corrupted Maiar and as Galin remarks reduces their number down to at the very most...seven (HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed).

So, the time you are talking about when Ecthelion slew 3 of them, was an earlier time when Tolkien had the idea that the Balrogs were an entire race of their own (not Maiar) and therefor far less powerful. That might be where part of the 'unbelievability' is coming from, because I agree that it would be unbelievable for any elf to slay 3 Maiar!

However, it's not so unbelievable that an Elf could take down a Balrog. Tolkien wrote a story where the lines of 'power' always mix and mingle together and there is no clear 'hierarchy' of who is more powerful. And we have to remember when we generally say that 'Elves are more powerful than Men' that doesn't mean we can assume that every elf is more powerful than every man. Just as I dont think one can assume every Maiar is equal in power, and every Balrog was equal in power. Just keep that in mind too, we're not dealing with a strict, rigid 'hierarchy of power,' but one that is just all meshed together. That is why Elves end up slaying Maiar, and Hobbits end up doing serious damage to a giant kick butt spider...etc.

Lets also not forget that Ecthelion and Glorfindel are extremely powerful Elves in their own right. They were Noldor Elven Lords, not your simple ordinary elf. They had also both seen the light of the two trees, and any elf who did, we are told grew in power.

Now if a Man slew a Balrog (even a 'great man' such as Turin) I would say that is 'unbelievable.' As it appears to take more than being a skilled and powerful fighter to slay a Balrog. Gandalf was locked in a 10 day battle with Durin's Bane and there was more than two foes who were crossing swords (or in this case one with a whip and the other with a sword):

'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark...'

'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him...'

and...

'Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough?'

(All quotes come from The White Rider).

This was a 10-day struggle amongst two Maiar. And as Gandalf says to the Fellowship 'This is a beyond any of you.' (Aragorn and Boromir are no chumps when it comes to 'fighters' amongst mortals). Gandalf was already weary, however in this case he could use his full Maiar powers. Gandalf was just restricted from showing his true form/powers when there were Elves and Men around...well here he's battling a Balrog under and on top of mountains. There is no one around to see it, and as I think is clear from Gandalf's description, he let loose his Maiar abilities in this great 'Battle of the Peak.'

I guess the bottomline here I'm trying to get at, is it's not so unbelievable for some of the most powerful Elves around (Glorfindel and Ecthelion) to slay a Balrog...as these two chaps were right up there in that 'greatest elf' category. However, if a mortal slew a balrog, than I would say that is rather unbelievable, because I think it takes a certain power that mortals don't possess.

[obloquy]

Only three Balrogs need to exist: Durin's Bane, Gothmog, and Glorfindel's Bane. These are the three that receive solid canonicity by being included in writings that Tolkien himself saw published. Tolkien reduced their early multitude, as has been mentioned, and indicates that he might have removed all but just these three principals ("3 or at most 7"). This adjustment ought to be seen as an implemented change, since none of the texts that conflict with it were ever published by Tolkien himself, and were, per his written intention, obsolete with particular regard to balrog numbers. The Fall of Gondolin has almost no bearing on balrog discussion.

Edit: it occurs to me that Gothmog may not have had his canonicity cemented as the other two, but I don't have time right now to check. In any case, there's no indication that Tolkien intended Gothmog's fate to change.