Morgoth and Doriath

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Quote:Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli
Because it's from The Children of Hurin, where CRT has avoided like the plague any deviation from the source-texts, unlike his younger self.

The quote first appears in the Silmarillion, in Of Turin Turambar. I am not aware it appears in Tolkien's own writings.

Much of Ch. 21 was perforce taken from the Narn papers, which are the source-material for The Children of Hurin. But Christopher today thinks that the Christopher of the 1970s took far too many liberties with his father's manuscripts, and has said many times, in print and out, that the Children of Hurin is with a few minor exceptions his father's words verbatim- much more so than was the case with the Narn in Unfinished Tales. I would accord the Children of Hurin canonical status above Unfinished Tales and just below HoME- and of course far, far above Chapter 22 of the 1977 text, which Christopher largely made up from whole cloth.

[Raynor]

Well, if we are going canonical, then whatever Chris wrote, it has the full, official, backing of the professor. He can modify, publish, or delete anything and everything. Anyway, even if, for the sake of argument, we disregard Tolkien's position regarding Chris, you still have to prove that Melkor planned and controlled the chain of events. However, by and large, you already admitted that was not the case.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

My position is straightforward and hardly complicated- Morgoth released the twisted, ruined Hurin to become a moral Typhoid Mary directed principally at Doriath. Is that not the case?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

My position is straightforward and hardly complicated- Morgoth released the twisted, ruined Hurin to become a moral Typhoid Mary directed principally at Doriath.

"Straightforward position" and "moral Typhoid Mary" in the same phrase? That is a bit amusing for a non-native speaker like me . On the topic: that Hurin was released to be a "hate factor", I agreed with back when I quoted the reason why he was released. The case in point is the degree of control that Melkor had over the fall of Doriath. You previously argued he was "hyper intelligent", and thus he had the means. However, as I pointed previously, the horde, oath and kinslaying that you invoked were correlated to Melkor, but he did not create and control them. I'm afraid that, at this point, I said as much as I could on this subject.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Arrrgghhhhh! How many times does it have to be repeated? Tolkien never, ever, said that! Not once in any authentic writing did he suggest that Hurin was met with pity or healing. Indeed, in the original Tale and again in the Qenta Noldorinwa, the only narratives written, Thingol treats him with scorn and contempt. In the last version of the incident Tolkien himself ever wrote, the Later Annals of Beleriand, "Hurin brought the gold to Thingol in Doriath, but he departed thence again with bitter words." And if you think Tolkien's view of his character mellowed over time, you'd be dead wrong- this is where The Wanderings of Hurin (ca. 1960) are important. Hurin there is a bitter, vengeful old man, watching with sardonic amusement the fratricidal bloodbath he precipitated in Brethil. If he enjoyed the destruction of the House of Haleth, how much more must he have wished harm on Thingol!

I'm aware that there are those who believe that Of the Ruin of Doriath doesn't have a legitimate place within the Tolkien canon. However, whatever handwringing and agonising that Christopher may have done post 1977 he has never sought to revise the tale and at this point it is unlikely that he will do so. So what are we left with? Am I to understand that I cannot discuss a view of Doriath's destruction presented in a thirty year old work edited by Tolkien's literary executor?