Morgoth and Doriath

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

Morgoth had three Silmarils in his possession for quite a long time, and he didn't just wander into Doriath and attack Menegroth.

I believe it has already been mentioned before that Melkor feared for his body, that is why he avoided combat.

It's a lot easier for one soldier to slip across the lines than it is for an army to march in. regardless of which war we're talking about.

I don't think that this analogy is valid. Defense lines can be crossed it there is a lack of awareness, something I doubt can applied to matters of enchantment. The text is rather specific in that respect (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Of the Sindar, Silmarillion

Melian put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wail of shadow and bewilderment: the Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia.

Beren passed because fate was on his side:

Originally Posted by Of the Coming of Men into the West, Silmarillion

And one of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.

A rather similar case has been made for Carcharoth, with the mentioning that the power of the silmaril was a factor in his trespassing.

[Morthoron]

Perhaps Melian's Girdle veiled Morgoth's sight, or more likely, being the wolfish predator he was, Morgoth would have had to exert far more of his own personal power in overcoming the Girdle than merely relying on his minions to circumvent it. Such an extravagant exertion of personal power might have been beyond Morgoth's ability as he had expended it lavishly in previous ages.

P.S. With a grin I note this is my one-hundred and eleventieth post. Cheers to Bilbo!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps Melian's Girdle veiled Morgoth's sight

I agree

Originally Posted by Of the Ruin of Doriath

And hearing the words of Melian Hurin stood moveless, and he gazed long into the eyes of the Queen; and there in Menegroth, defended still by the Girdle of Melian from the darkness of the Enemy, he read the truth of all that was done, and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir.

Another interesting aspect of this quote is this: Hurin tastes the fullness of woe. This reinforces the quote I gave regarding the purpose of Hurin's release: to further Melkor's hate of Elves and Men, not to act as weapon in the actual fall of Doriath as it has been argued.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And hearing the words of Melian Hurin stood moveless, and he gazed long into the eyes of the Queen; and there in Menegroth, defended still by the Girdle of Melian from the darkness of the Enemy, he read the truth of all that was done, and tasted at last the fullness of woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir.

But Tolkien didn't write that passage. There's no suggestion of any healing at all- this whole business was written by Christopher (in consultation with Guy Kay).

Here however is a passage whose canonicity is if not perfect then still very great:

Who now knows the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, the dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, whether by spy or by traitor, seeing in the eyes of his mind and understanding far more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest among them feared.

The chessmaster indeed! And it continues

...save Melian the Queen. To her often his thought reached out, and was foiled

In fact, throughout CoH there are mentions of Morgoth's inability to 'see' into Doriath- echoed in Sauron and Galadriel's Lorien. Moreover,

Gondolin still stood, but it was hidden. Doriath he knew, but could not enter yet

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

In fact, throughout CoH there are mentions of Morgoth's inability to 'see' into Doriath- echoed in Sauron and Galadriel's Lorien. Moreover,

Well, a 'girdle' by its very nature is restrictive and tends to hide that which the wearer would prefer not to be seen. Another uplifting use of a word by Tolkien.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Here however is a passage whose canonicity is if not perfect then still very great:

Why is it "still very great"? And I really don't see how this helps your case; Myths Transformed mention that he couldn't finnish several of his actions due to the fury of his malice, and Sauron had to do them instead. Although the wise may be impressed by what he achieved, not all the credit goes to him. And even if it did, you still have to prove that he figured out and planned all the fall of Doriath. Even if it were possible for him to do that, it doesn't mean he actually did it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Why is it "still very great"?

Because it's from The Children of Hurin, where CRT has avoided like the plague any deviation from the source-texts, unlike his younger self.


I don't believe he planned the Fall of Doriath in detail. But he did know that Hurin would bring hate and malice with him, which would bear fruit; and far more powerfully than did young Turin, who only precipitated the death of Saeros and his own exile. And if the Oath and the Kinslaying played roles, well, Morgoth was behind those too.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Because it's from The Children of Hurin, where CRT has avoided like the plague any deviation from the source-texts, unlike his younger self.

The quote first appears in the Silmarillion, in Of Turin Turambar. I am not aware it appears in Tolkien's own writings.

I don't believe he planned the Fall of Doriath in detail. But he did know that Hurin would bring hate and malice with him, which would bear fruit; and far more powerfully than did young Turin, who only precipitated the death of Saeros and his own exile. And if the Oath and the Kinslaying played roles, well, Morgoth was behind those too.

We are going in circles. Hurin himself brought little if any malice, as it has been covered more than once already. As for the hoard, oath and the kinslaying arguments, they are, as I mentioned from my first post, seeds of evil which develop independently from Melkor's will. One could even argue that there is no evidence that Melkor planned and caused the hoard to be cursed, the oath to be taken and the kinslaying to occur; nor that he continue to control their chains of events towards the destruction of Doriath.