Is THIS how you imagined the vampires?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Morthoron, there's enough examples on here now to show that Tolkien equating light with good, dark with evil was anything but consistently shown! And to add that the Gondorians built Orthanc out of black stone and the walls of Minas Tirith too. I believe that white flowers grow in Morgul Vale, and Saruman's symbol is the White Hand. Far from setting up a simplistic white/black symbolism Tolkien plays with the perceived cultural notions of white/back = good/evil - not all shades of black are bad, not all shades of white are good. It's been brought up many a time to counter the accusation that Tolkien is simplistic and uses traditionally racist symbolism.

I don't know why you keep bringing up racism. It is not an aspect which I believe is germane here, merely inflammatory.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Course if you want to just win an argument or make a point you may disregard all these examples which show Tolkien was not being so straightforwards. Yes there are contrasts, but they are by no means fixed - Tolkien also turns traditional contrasts upside down.

I am trying to 'win an argument', but your debate is antithetical to winning? Yet I suppose my rhetoric does not match your reason. Perhaps if I add a smiley emoticon that will mitigate any ill-will engendered by a perceived slight.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Rather than comparing white and black or light and darkness, and equating these with good and bad, what Tolkien does is set up the contrast of Light and Unlight, neither of which require either brightness or darkness, black or white. A very different thing altogether. In his world darkness can be very beautiful - Varda's stars against the night sky for example, or Arwen's hair, and brightness can be horrific - the bright flames at the heart of Mount Doom or the awesome Balrog.

I will not argue your observation regarding the contrast of 'light and unlight' as that is merely semantics. I will point out that nearly every reference to evil or corruption has an adjective like 'shadowy', 'swarthy', 'dark', 'black', etc. Morgoth's malice is viewed as 'dark and terrible' There is a reference to 'Death's shadow' (which ties in nicely with your 'unlight' allusion). Are there variations on the theme or instances of direct opposition? Certainly, and I stated that nothing about Tolkien was simplistic; but generally speaking (and I believe I used the case of generality previously), the references to evil are dark (or 'unlight' if you wish):

Now the Orcs that multiplied in the darkness of the earth grew strong and fell, and their dark lord filled them with a lust of ruin and death; and they issued from Angband's gates under the clouds that Morgoth sent forth...

The Nazgul in LotR are described as 'Black Riders', 'black figures' or 'black men' who are stongest in 'dark and loneliness'. They have been sent by the 'Dark Lord' of 'Mordor' (wherein the 'Shadow lies'). The 'Black Riders' employ 'black breath', and one of their agents in Bree is a 'swarthy' Southerner.

I am sorry, but this is my perception based on the corpus in totality. If you prefer to differentiate contrasts by 'light and unlight', then I am perfectly fine with referring to Tolkien's intent in that sense.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Anyway, at best this black/white thing is yet again a trivial matter aside from the main topic of this thread and serves little purpose to discussing vampires apart from maybe a wish to pedantically pick apart people's posts because not everyone can add anything more worthwhile to the topic. If you are bored then start a new thread please. Sorry, harsh, but it's getting tiresome that every thread gets hijacked/trolled like this by one or two folk - examples etc are given but if you choose to discount them because there is an N in the month then there isn't a lot of point discussing side issues as it's not that delightful illuminating madness you sometimes get on here but more arguing for the sake of 'winning'. I'm going to have to start putting people onto 'ignore' for my own sanity soon or ask you to kindly go outside and set your dogs on davem in the playground, it causes less mess

If you are referring to me, then I beg everyone's pardon (even though I did not start the digression, but continued it -- as you did). But I should have immediately deferred to your imminent and decidedly more appropriate opinion. I don't know what came over me. In future, I will nod my head dutifully whenever you make a pronouncement, particularly in regards to digressive discussions you are participating in.

Now where were we, ah yes...Bethberry, in regards to 'The Picture of Dorian Gray': do you think that Tolkien, based on his religious inclination, would have read or appreciated Oscar Wilde? Aside from the Dorian Grayish nature of the Elves, it is interesting to think of Bilbo after years of holding the Ring feeling 'thin and stretched', while maintaining his outward appearance, yet behaving in a manner uncharacteristic of his kindly nature (the portrait and the Ring being similar). The vampirish similarities of Gollum and his cannibalistic tendencies (if one considers eating Orcs as cannibalism) seem to be a direct reflection of the effect of the ring and its eventual erosion of morality.