Iceland in Tolkien's Work?

[Lalwendë]

Could that be where the phrase "happy go lucky" comes from?

Originally Posted by davem

And there are episodes in the sagas where individuals fight trolls, Elves & ghosts. 'Ghosts' are interesting in Scandinavian lore, as they have a physical presence & engage in combat with heroes (Grettir fights trolls & breaks into a barrow to steal grave goods. He has to fight the ghost of the inhabitant, & defeats him in the traditional way - beheading the ghost & placing its head between its buttocks.

I wonder why that image will not go from my mind...

It would certainly mean that the ghost had no chance of pursuing its victim!

Now those Elves...the scandinavian people even had rituals of sacrifice made to the Elves - the Alfablot. That's how serious they were/are about Elves!

[Lalaith]

Still light elf-fires...alfabrennur....on Twelfth Night.

[davem]

Another similarity with Hobbit traditions:

At the expensive feasts & offerings of hospitality that figure prominently in the literature, the quality of relationships was judged by noting whether the host sent his guest off with 'good gifts'. (Byock 'Viking Age iceland')

In other words, its the party guests who recieved gifts.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Was the hobbit tradition not only so at birthdays?

Because I think it was a more general thing back around the year 1000. It did not have to be a birthday party or even a party, it would always be the host that treated the guests. In sertain cases the guest might bring something as well I supposse.

Anyways, the quote made me think of Morwen. . . she seems to share this view. When Thingol sents messengers to her with gifts, she feels obliged to give them gifts as well.

I cannot remember if the gifts was for Thingol or the messengers. . . .that could be important.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Anyways, the quote made me think of Morwen. . . she seems to share this view. When Thingol sents messengers to her with gifts, she feels obliged to give them gifts as well.

I cannot remember if the gifts was for Thingol or the messengers. . . .that could be important.

Thus began the sojourn of Túrin in Doriath. With him remained for a while Gethron and Grithnir his guardians, though they yearned to return again to their lady in Dor-lómin. Then age and sickness came upon Grithnir, and he stayed beside Túrin until he died; but Gethron departed, and Thingol sent with him an escort to guide him and guard him, and they brought words from Thingol to Morwen. They came at last to Húrin's house, and when Morwen learned that Túrin was received with honour in the halls of Thingol her grief was lightened; and the Elves brought also rich gifts from Melian, and a message bidding her return with Thingol's folk to Doriath. For Melian was wise and foresighted, and she hoped thus to avert the evil that was prepared in the thought of Morgoth. But Morwen would not depart from her house, for her heart was yet unchanged and her pride still high; moreover Niënor was a babe in arms. Therefore she dismissed the Elves of Doriath with her thanks, and gave them in gift the last small things of gold that remained to her, concealing her poverty; and she bade them take back to Thingol the Helm of Hador.

So the Elven messengers bring gifts from Melian & Morwen reciprocates with gifts to them. The giving of the Helm is a bit ambiguous - is she giving it as a gift to Thingol, or giving it to Turin via Thingol? (We also have Turin's giving of his Knife to Sador, but that's perhaps a side issue).

If she was giving the Helm to Turin then we have another echo of the Sagas, in that a Mother would often give a weapon to her son, along with 'encouragement' to avenge a dishonour to the family. This happens in Grettir's saga - & another interesting point is that Grettir's death is brought about by his attempting to cut up a (cursed in Grettir's case) piece of driftwood for firewood - the axe he is using slips & he cuts open his own leg (as happens with Sador) which cripples him & leaves him unable to defend himself against his enemies' attack.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've always felt as though Tolkien's greatest 'debt' to the Sagas was more their "feel" than any specific event or reference. Time and again in the Sagas you have somebody who does something that sets off a feud and no matter how hard everyone tries to avert disaster and tragedy it's hopeless and everyone involved suffers mightily. The Sagas do not participate in the Modernist idea of history as advance/improvement...quite the reverse. And that's pretty much the story of Middle Earth in a nutshell. Things generally go from light to dark, from high to low, vengeance and blood feuds wipe out whole peoples and cause misery without justice... Which is not to say that the Sagas or Middle-earth are depressing places--there is fellowship, honour, heroism but mostly there is convivialty, hospitality and, most importantly, gatherings of friends and family. The world is dark, but life need not be so.

There may be elements of particular reference between the Sagas and Middle-earth (the portrayal of the trolls in TH is clearly inspired by Icelandic trolls; the 'governmental' structure of the Shire is pretty much precisely the kind of loose 'democracy' practised in Old Iceland) but on the whole I think the real comparison is to be made betwen the views of heroism--what Tolkien called "naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat". That's what got Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom, and that's what inspired Aragorn to lead his armies to the Black Gate.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

....but on the whole I think the real comparison is to be made betwen the views of heroism--what Tolkien called "naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat". That's what got Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom, and that's what inspired Aragorn to lead his armies to the Black Gate.

Yes, but such valor is not specifically Icelandic in nature; one could just as easily infer the same from Tolkien's Anglo-Saxon studies. One only has to read The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son to get that same sense of valor and heroic chivalry (however misguided in this case in point). That sense of selflessness in the face of defeat and death is evident in nearly every literary piece of that time (even the coeval Frankish 'Song of Roland' echoes that bravado).

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I've always felt as though Tolkien's greatest 'debt' to the Sagas was more their "feel" than any specific event or reference. Time and again in the Sagas you have somebody who does something that sets off a feud and no matter how hard everyone tries to avert disaster and tragedy it's hopeless and everyone involved suffers mightily. The Sagas do not participate in the Modernist idea of history as advance/improvement...quite the reverse. And that's pretty much the story of Middle Earth in a nutshell. Things generally go from light to dark, from high to low, vengeance and blood feuds wipe out whole peoples and cause misery without justice... Which is not to say that the Sagas or Middle-earth are depressing places--there is fellowship, honour, heroism but mostly there is convivialty, hospitality and, most importantly, gatherings of friends and family. The world is dark, but life need not be so.

There may be elements of particular reference between the Sagas and Middle-earth (the portrayal of the trolls in TH is clearly inspired by Icelandic trolls; the 'governmental' structure of the Shire is pretty much precisely the kind of loose 'democracy' practised in Old Iceland) but on the whole I think the real comparison is to be made betwen the views of heroism--what Tolkien called "naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat". That's what got Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom, and that's what inspired Aragorn to lead his armies to the Black Gate.

Nice one Fordim. That's the greatest similarity of all - the style. A lot of people struggle with the Sil as the style is so at odds with the usual style you expect of a novel, yes even of Rings, but once you pick up an Icelandic Saga you have a moment of revelation and realise just what Tolkien was attempting to do in terms of style. Have to admit I was dumbfounded to realise this at long last! Far from being 'biblical', the Sil is just like one of the Sagas! Long lists of people, stark language and imagery, thinly but effectively drawn scenes of slaughter and of horror.

One of my mates once said he found The Sil 'glacial', and I told him that Tolkien was trying to achieve a 'cool Northern air' - and this is where, I think, he found it. I was rambling on not so long ago about how the Kinslaying made me feel odd, took me back to my ancestors almost - and then again when I picked up a Saga for the first time this feeling completely grabbed me by the guts.

It's a rich mine I think.

And that's what this thread is about - looking at Icelandic Sagas, Iceland and Tolkien's work.