Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[Raynor]

Do you really think I would pass up another chance to discuss class in Tolkien's work?

Well, if it walks like a duck and if it talks like duck, etc... That is: yes, you seem like you are passing this chance; but, since it seems everyone but me is content with that, I guess I will just have to sit back and enjoy the ever evolving funniness of this thread.

[davem]

So I lied about being done with the digression...

dinner
1297, from O.Fr. disner, originally "breakfast," later "lunch," noun use of infinitive disner (see dine). Always used in Eng. for the main meal of the day; shift from midday to evening began with the fashionable classes. Childish reduplication din-din is attested from 1905.
supper
c.1275, "the last meal of the day," from O.Fr. super "supper," noun use of super "to eat the evening meal," which is of Gmc. origin (see sup (1)).
"Formerly, the last of the three meals of the day (breakfast, dinner, and supper); now applied to the last substantial meal fo the day when dinner is taken in the middle of the day, or to a late meal following an early evening dinner. Supper is usually a less formal meal than late dinner." [OED]
Applied since c.1300 to the last meal of Christ.On-line etymology dictionary

The point at issue is whether Tolkien would have considered lunch & dinner to be interchangeable. I say he wouldn't - 'cos he was English. And, as I've stated, Hobbits have 'dinner twice a day when they can get it' so an evening dinner does not preclude a mid day dinner - in fact it requires a mid day dinner - unless they have two dinners at night. Thus, as I stated, Breakfast, second breakfast, first dinner, tea, second dinner, supper - if Hobbits have 'six' meals a day & two of them are breakfasts, two dinners, & there is a tea & a supper in there then tehre's no room for 'lunch'. Tolkien specifically states 'two dinners'.

[Morwen]

Originally posted by SpM
However, while (for these reasons) I find the substance of this digression irrelevant to the main thrust of this thread, it does raise a valid issue, which is the one that Thena has been trying to tease out. Given that Tolkien, being an individual, had a unique perspective on life, no one (not even Christopher, although he would come the closest) could ever write a tale set within Middle-earth which would be entirely consistent with Tolkien’s own Middle-earth writings. None of us would be able to ‘get’, let alone reproduce, every single ingredient which went into making his tales what they are. Does that mean that no one should try? Leaving aside the question of authorisation, which is a matter for the Estate, I cannot for the life of me see why not. If people derive pleasure from writing fan-fic and others derive pleasure from reading it, what is the problem? What does it matter if Hobbits do lunch or Elves snort? If you do not like it, you do not have to read it.

Speaking for myself the writing and reading of fanfiction is not an issue. Of course, no one has yet posted anything to that directly states that Tolkien encouraged such a practice, in which case the answer to the thread's initial question is no. But if persons who have read LotR, etc are inspired to create their own stories and persons read and enjoy these stories, there is no problem there. As you point out, those who don't want to read fanfiction don't have to.
I too would leave the question of authorisation aside. For my part that is what I have objected to/expressed reservations about.
Back to the digression.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Of course, no one has yet posted anything to that directly states that Tolkien encouraged such a practice, in which case the answer to the thread's initial question is no.

Strictly speaking, 'not proven'.

[Morwen]

Originally posted by SpM
Strictly speaking, 'not proven'. [img]ubb/wink.gif[/img]

True . Still, after 300 posts somebody should have come up with something. Well, I did ask Sauron the White a while back if he could point to a quote showing Tolkien's encouragement of other tales but I believe he couldn't find any.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Morwen

True . Still, after 300 posts somebody should have come up with something.

You asked for it.

[Morwen]

Well what I actually asked for is a quote from Tolkien expressing his views on the matter, which perhaps people might provide after voting in your poll.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

The point at issue is whether Tolkien would have considered lunch & dinner to be interchangeable. I say he wouldn't - 'cos he was English. And, as I've stated, Hobbits have 'dinner twice a day when they can get it' so an evening dinner does not preclude a mid day dinner - in fact it requires a mid day dinner - unless they have two dinners at night. Thus, as I stated, Breakfast, second breakfast, first dinner, tea, second dinner, supper - if Hobbits have 'six' meals a day & two of them are breakfasts, two dinners, & there is a tea & a supper in there then tehre's no room for 'lunch'. Tolkien specifically states 'two dinners'.

Give it up, Davem, please. I find it interesting that you would quote the 'narrator' regarding the single mention of 'dinner twice a day if they can get it', and ignore the several uses of the term lunch from said narrator. You have continually discounted the narrator's mention of anything contradicting your beliefs. Oh, as a matter of fact, here's your quote:

Originally Posted by Davem

Lunch is not 'featured prominently in the text' – it is used by three characters – once by Pippin, twice by Merry & once by Gimli – the other times it appears it is used by the narrator/translator- which may tell us a great deal about the narrator/translator but little about Hobbits.

What it tells me is that the narrator used lunch and dinner and dinner and supper interchangeably; therefore, you can't alight on the single white poppy in a whole field of red ones and say, 'Hah! All poppies are white!'

I will ask a third time, in fact I will post the same request I posted the first two times:

And please supply a direct quote from any Hobbit character of the lower classes that uses the term 'dinner' for a midday meal. You won't find it, and neither will you find a reference to 'lunch' or 'supper'. The absence of something does not prove you are correct. The only reference to a lower class Hobbit using the term 'dinner' is Old Noakes and that was concerning a meal in the moonlight.

Anything else is conjecture on your part and cannot be verified. Also, please forego outside sources that have no bearing on the text. Your original claim that Hobbits would not use the term 'lunch' has already been proven false, and you have yet to prove that dinner and lunch are not interchangeable. I have provided ample proofs that they indeed are interchangeable (and in addition to 'lunch' being an 'official' meal of Bilbo's birthday party, there is also "Folco went home after lunch" with Frodo). What it comes down to is 'lunch' is indeed a term used by Hobbits, and therefore is acceptable in a fan-fic or a new revisualization of Middle-earth.

If you'd like to discuss something that has an actual bearing on class distinctions among Hobbits (and there were many and easily discernible and textually provable), then please drop this farcical argument.

[Thenamir]

Forget wings...do Balrogs have 'lunch'? That's what this debate has become. Rather than discuss the thread topic, we digress into whatever controversy best facilitates argument without resolution, continued restatements and rehashings of tired points, seldom even dressed in new verbage. Please forgive me for interjecting my thoughts, and getting in the way of a good row.

[davem]

http://www.putlearningfirst.com/lang...al/dinner.html

[Estelyn Telcontar]

At this point, this discussion is generating more heat than light. I am therefore temporarily closing the thread to give participants time to reread the beginning pages and remember what the actual topic is. It would also be nice if the interim could be used for finding other threads or starting new, interesting discussions that will provide us all with real food for thought.

Either that, or you may use this commercial break to have breakfast, lunch, a snack, dinner, supper, or whatever you choose to call the intake of edibles at this or any other time of day in yours or any other country!

[skip spence]

I once worked with an English bloke called Ben and when he called his mid day meal "dinner" I was quite perplexed as that term, as for me at that time I thought it solely referred to an evening meal. When I asked him why he called lunch dinner he said that where he came from (which sadly I can't remember, though he'd spent most of his adult life in London) dinner is the main meal of the day, regardless of whether it's taken around noon, or in mid- or late evening. He didn't mention any class distinctions but perhaps he intentionally avoided the issue or thought me too foreign to understand.

Sorry, I just killed a few hours reading this old thread and boy did they fly by.

I'd love to discuss the original subject too at some point.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I'd love to discuss the original subject too at some point.

Certainly, Skip. Let's talk over lunch some time.