Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

It is interesting to see that you now hold the author to have ultimate rights over his work, while in previous threads you and davem argued that your own personal interpretations hold water no matter what Tolkien said elsewhere, be it letters, HoME, UT, Silmarillion. If subjective interpretation was the primary criterion you accepted as valid in judging his work, then surely you must accept that everyone can choose to consider relevant whatever ideea, or in the context of this thread, writting. Else, you are using a double standard.

I've never argued that - sorry if my earlier posts were over subtle.

My argument has always been that what Tolkien said has to been seen in the context of what he wrote & when he wrote it, & most importantly who he was writing to. The idea that every single statement he ever made, on the record & off, to correspondents in personal letters, to newspapers, on film, in writings which were subsequently amended must all be given equal weight, is, frankly, a ludicrous position. Context is the issue.


The argument here is whether anyone else can 'do a Tolkien', effectively, become another Tolkien.

Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

Oh, and davem, your continued insistence that M-e only exists in the works of JRRT is fine, but it's an opinion. Every reader, indeed everyone who has had any connection to the stories, even by rumor only, has some conceptualization of M-e within him. I think we would agree that none of those can be the same as JRRT's, but they do exist. If only the concept of M-e that matters died with him, then why read it? Why make movies or paintings or even fanfic? Does M-e not exist for you when you put down the books? If not, then I pity you. But let the rest of us keep it alive.

This, again, is not the point. The point is whether anyone else can do what Tolkien did, have Tolkien's insight in to his own creation sufficient to enable them to create convincing stories set in his world. The answer is no.

The other point which seems to be consistently ignored is Tolkien's absolute control over his creation - the fact that he had the power to change, amend & completely do away with whole chunks of his creation as it suited him. No other writer can do that. Tolkien could take off on the most extreme tangent (read 'Myths Transformed') & it is accepted as valid - even if many of us consider it to have been a mistake. No new writer could make even minor changes without being criticised.

Personal interpretation/experience is not the issue here. We all experience M-e in a unique way. That is essential. What you seem to be asking for is another writer's personal interpretation to be given extra weight by being officially sanctioned.

Fanfic is fanfic - whether its free via the Internet, or published by Harper Collins in a nice hardback with the JRRT monogram on it & priced at £18.99. If its not by JRRT its fanfic.

[The Saucepan Man]

*Hesitates before entering, takes a deep breath, and plunges in*

As someone who, after reading LotR, hoovered up all kinds of fantasy fiction (some of which I enjoyed immensely, some less so), got into playing AD&D, and failed to finish reading the Silmarillion at first attempt (aged 14), I find some of the opinions expressed here to be somewhat patronising. Is it not double standards to criticise the likes of Germaine Greer for her dismissive approach to Tolkien’s works, yet at the same time adopt an equally dismissive approach to other works of the ‘fantasy genre’? Whether or not someone enjoys a work and sees value in it is a very subjective thing. Greer and her ilk don’t like Tolkien, which is fair enough, but they then go on to attempt to force their opinion on others by ridiculing and disparaging the object of their dislike. Let us not adopt the same approach to other fantasy novels just because they are not for us or because we feel that, in our opinion, they do not match up to the standard set by Tolkien.

Anyway, be that as it may, views, opinions and arguments on a pinhead are being thrown around all over the place here (something that I would never do ). So let’s get back to the facts.

1. Copyright in Tolkien’s published works lays with the Estate and that will remain the case for many years to come.

2. People write fanfic for their own personal enjoyment and for the enjoyment of others, and this appears to be tolerated by the Estate, provided that it is not done for commercial gain (which would most likely represent a breach of copyright in any event).

3. No work based upon Tolkien’s Middle-earth writings is likely to be commercially published or considered in any way authoritative unless authorised by the Estate, at least for the next 40 years or so.

In light of these facts, what is the argument about? Fanfic will continue to be written and people who like that sort of thing will be able to continue to read and enjoy it. No authoritative work will be produced or marketed without the blessing of the Estate. That is a matter for the Estate. It is unlikely to happen, given their approach but, were it to happen, the work concerned would need to be of high quality and very much in line with Tolkien’s intended spirit in order to receive the Estate’s blessing, thus avoiding the ‘cheapening’ the Legendarium with ‘pulp imitators’. So where is the issue?