Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[Sauron the White]

Is it possible that there can be some acceptable world in between those of THE CANON as written directly by Tolkien himself and the fan fiction area?

Yes, there will always be THE CANON because that is what it is. Like Robert DeNiro said in THE DEERHUNTER... "this is this". But given the reality of the present economics and publishing pressures, is it not inevitable that someday, someway, somehow, the Estate may decide that the best way to fight complete abdication of the copyright is to sanction a new hand selected writer to write Middle-earth tales? The literary estates of many other authors had to face that problem as copyright faced expiration - J. M. Barrie and PAN comes to mind of late - the Margaret Mitchell estate sanctioned a sequel to GONE WITH THE WIND, the James Bond books, just to name a few.

Perhaps we can find an area that is not considered THE CANON but is considerable more authoritative than fan fiction.

[Lalwendë]

There are never going to be economic pressures laid upon the Estate by Harper Collins as the Estate merely make use of the services owned by the publishing house, and the Estate are not beholden to them. Nor is the Estate in any way short of cash. Or ever likely to be!

And the difference between CT and anyone else is that he is an editor, there to sift through the fragments and put them together with maybe a note or two along the way. He only issues what his father had intended to do more with had he had more time in this world.

Books based on films may be one thing - but to have them based on Tolkien's work smacks of one thing only - dumbing down in the name of profit. Who knows, maybe one day a Literary Executor will come along with a burning desire to build himself a Tolkfork in the Oxfordshire countryside and build up a collection of Ferraris. Until then, why should the Estate pander to the wishes of the film fans, when they've already had not only the films but already have some perfectly good books to read - though to be nasty, maybe they are a bit too difficult for them?

Anything outside of the canon simply is not authoritative, never has been, never will be. Which is why matters of canon regarding the texts we already have are still so hotly debated.

[Sauron the White]

What will happen when the copyrights begin to expire?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

There is a world of difference between CT the scholar and the writers of the ST and SW universes. Yet hasn't CT invited, even inflamed, the desire, whetted by these other situations, for other Middle earth stories? Once JRRT opened up his imagination to CT, a subtle knife cut into the canonicity issue and the dust spills over.

I don't know. CT produced the '77 Sil because his father had been promising to publish the Silmarillion for years, & had always wanted to see it in print. CT's 'contribution' was mainly the final 3 chapters, which Tolkien had not brought into a sufficiently complete state (probably the understatement of the century). For the rest CT has basically published what his father left in pretty much the state he left it.

CoH is a case in point. That is 99.99% Tolkien pere, & CT's contribution has been in the main to provide linking sentences:

In the result, while I have had to introduce bridging passages here and there in the piecing together of different drafts, there is no element of extraneous 'invention' of any kind, however slight, in the longer text here presented. The text is nonetheless artificial, as it could not be otherwise: the more especially since this great body of manuscript represents a continual evolution in the actual story. Drafts that are essential to the formation of an uninterrupted narrative may in fact belong to an earlier stage. Thus, to give an example from an earlier point, a primary text for the story of the coming of Túrin's band to the hill of Amon Rûdh, the dwelling place that they found upon it and their life there, and the ephemeral success of the land of Dor-Cúarthol, was written before there was any suggestion of the Petty-dwarves; and indeed a fully-developed description of Mîm's house beneath the summit appears before Mîm himself.
In the remainder of the story, from Túrin's return to Dor-lómin, to which my father gave a finished form, there are naturally very few differences from the text in Unfinished Tales. But there are two matters of detail in the account of the attack on Glaurung at Cabed-en-Aras where I have emended the original words and which should be explained. (CoH Composition of the Text)

If any of the other tales were in such a virtually complete state, I'd be all for them being published. They aren't - nowhere near.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Is it possible that there can be some acceptable world in between those of THE CANON as written directly by Tolkien himself and the fan fiction area?
Perhaps we can find an area that is not considered THE CANON but is considerable more authoritative than fan fiction.

No, there's Tolkien's creation. Anything else is fanfic (whatever you choose to call it). Look, there is little chance of anyone producing authoritative or acceptable versions of the other 'Great Tales' (Fall of Gondolin & Beren & Luthien) for very good reasons - the Gondolin material is too confused & contradictory in nature, style & content for anything better than CT has produced in the '77 Sil to be produced ( I suspect that anyone trying to put together a novel length version of it would find themselves very bogged very quickly) & Beren & Luthien should simply be considered untouchable out of respect for Tolkien. B&E simply meant too much to him, was too personal. The idea that someone would turn it into an adventure story is about as distasteful an idea as I can imagine. This is not to treat the story as 'Holy Writ', merely to show proper respect to Tolkien.

The earlier suggestion that someone could one day write a story about the finding of the Silmarils shows a complete misunderstanding of the symbolism of the Jewels finding their end in Air, Earth & Water, & would be as silly as the repeated death/resurrection of the bad guys in trashy horror movie sequels.

The other option would be to write novels, or series of novels, set in Middle-earth, with Elves, Dwarves & Hobbits going off to have adventures - which would basically reduce Middle-earth to a standard fantasy world franchise & cheapen Tolkien's creation. And I hope any response to that point can avoid the 'Well, one day a genius may come along...' argument.

What will happen when the copyrights begin to expire?

I'm sure the vultures will gather & wring every penny out of Tolkien's genius they can.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by davem

I'm sure the vultures will gather & wring every penny out of Tolkien's genius they can.

This of course would be one of the signs of the Apocalypse.

More seriously, people who wish to write fan fiction do so now. Good for them. I gather they do so for their own amusement, not to publish or be considered authoratative. In such cases the blessing of the Estate is irrelevant.
As for the Estate annointing someone to create a Non Canon body of work this sounds like the kind of thing Hollywood movie moguls engage in, trying to capitalise on a brilliant original by churning out sequels of questionable quality. And I think the question of quality has to be a real concern. As observed earlier, it's overly optimistic IMO to think that the Estate or Fate is going to find "some genius" who is willing to spend his/her time diligently channeling the dead.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morwen

This of course would be one of the signs of the Apocalypse.

I think some of those horsemen are already riding pretty hard.

Originally Posted by davem

I don't know. CT produced the '77 Sil because his father had been promising to publish the Silmarillion for years, & had always wanted to see it in print. CT's 'contribution' was mainly the final 3 chapters, which Tolkien had not brought into a sufficiently complete state (probably the understatement of the century). For the rest CT has basically published what his father left in pretty much the state he left it.
. . .

This is the point over which there is much controversy, much contention. Anyone who has been reading Aiwendil's Chapter by Chapter discussion on The Silm knows that this statement is equally an understatement--although of course I know you, davem have sworn off the chapter by chapter discussions, so likely I'm sure your take would differ from Aiwendil's. STill, you should take a look at what has been posted so far.

CT's role has not been strictly speaking that of an editor who comes on the scene like Athena, fully armed. (I think it was Athena--Roman mythology is getting so hazzy these days.) One could well say that rarely has has a writer been able to create--one might say educate or even perfect--a reader for his own work. CT was first an audience of what was close to if not precisely an oral telling of one of the tales (however much you might discount its canonicity, davem.) (Heavens! There's JRRT muddying up his own Legendarium. ) CT was also a member of The Inklings; his name is included on that hand written list which hands on the wall of the Bird and Baby--and Tolkien even wryly identifies himself as the father of the above named 'Christopher Tolkien.' CT must then have been party to all those wranglings and recitals over manuscripts. He also was what would now be called a beta reader, so intimately was he involved in the writing of LotR, Tolkien Sr. sending off chapters to him while he was waging war in South Africa. Then of course he became literary executor and by his own acknowledgement he regrets some of the creative work he did when producing The Silm.

In fact, I think it fair to say that Tolkien Sr. created not only an ideal reader for his work in his son, but he created an ideal inheritor of the mantle of Middle earth translator.

And none of this had anything to do with vultures or money. It is this situation which is so starkly unique in the literary world which gives breathe to the aspirations of other readers. And Tolkien created those conditions.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

This is the point over which there is much controversy, much contention. Anyone who has been reading Aiwendil's Chapter by Chapter discussion on The Silm knows that this statement is equally an understatement--although of course I know you, davem have sworn off the chapter by chapter discussions, so likely I'm sure your take would differ from Aiwendil's. STill, you should take a look at what has been posted so far.

Probably wasn't clear enough there - by 'for the rest' I meant UT & HoM-e, not 'the rest' of the '77 Sil.

his name is included on that hand written list which hands on the wall of the Bird and Baby--and Tolkien even wryly identifies himself as the father of the above named 'Christopher Tolkien.'

Its not genuine - its a photocopy of the Frontispiece from Carpenter's 'The Inklings' (fooled me too, but Lalwende's cynicism proved correct). No connection with the Bird & Baby at all. Apart from that I'd have to agree with your point.

It is this situation which is so starkly unique in the literary world which gives breathe to the aspirations of other readers. And Tolkien created those conditions.

Perhaps. I suspect it has a lot to do with the illusion of Secondary Reality Tolkien communicated so well - too many readers think of Middle-earth as a place with its own history, & just don't get that it is artifice - what Tolkien didn't create doesn't exist.

[Sauron the White]

I asked this question

What will happen when the copyrights begin to expire?

and was provided with this answer:

I'm sure the vultures will gather & wring every penny out of Tolkien's genius they can.

Please allow me to ask this again and to say I am looking for something more fact based and less of an editorial comment.

At what point in time does the copyright lapse on any of the Middle-earth based tales?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Please allow me to ask this again and to say I am looking for something more fact based and less of an editorial comment.

At what point in time does the copyright lapse on any of the Middle-earth based tales?

In theory 75 years after Tolkien's death.

However, recent editions of LotR (& other works) are copyright to the Tolkien Trust, not JRRT himself, so I'm not sure how long the copyright in this case will hold for. It will outlast me at least, for which I'm grateful.

[Sauron the White]

This is from Wikipedia in the article on copyright law.

Copyright subsists for a variety of lengths in different jurisdictions, with different categories of works and the length it subsists for also depends on whether a work is published or unpublished. In most of the world the default length of copyright for many works is generally the life of the author plus either 50 or 70 years.

Can anyone identify the reasons why with Tolkien it would be 75 years as davem provided in his latest post? Also does anyone know what determines if it is 50 years or 70 years? Does this mean that - in some parts of the world - we could be looking at the issue 50 years after the 1973 death date? That would mean 2023 which is 16 years away.

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more info... The revised British law recognizes 70 years after an authors death. Before the mid 1980's it was only 50 years. Some other countries have shorter periods.