Big Mystery: The Nine Rings of Power

[narfforc]

When Frodo puts on the Ring he is invisible you do not see a ring floating in mid-air, I believe this to be true of The Nine, because the Rings had totally ensnared them they and their rings are now invisible. When it comes to what Gandalf says in The Council of Elrond I put more trust in his words for they are what Tokien says and is happy with it in published form, I do not wish to be a bore but anything in UT is only what he was thinking of writing, nothing was ever finalised.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by narfforc

When Frodo puts on the Ring he is invisible you do not see a ring floating in mid-air, I believe this to be true of The Nine, because the Rings had totally ensnared them they and their rings are now invisible.

Well, but this is surely not the same case. It is the power of the One Ring to turn its bearer invisible, we don't know anything like that about the Nine in particular. And the Nazgul, when they were clothed, had everything visible - black cloaks, swords... why not the Rings? Why should the Rings themselves be invisible, when the Ringwraith wanted to be visible? When Frodo put the Ring on, he disappeared with all his possessions, Sting, clothes. The garments and weapons of Ringwraith were visible. So I wouldn't consider this much of an evidence.

Originally Posted by narfforc

When it comes to what Gandalf says in The Council of Elrond I put more trust in his words for they are what Tokien says and is happy with it in published form, I do not wish to be a bore but anything in UT is only what he was thinking of writing, nothing was ever finalised.

Good point, though, we still have more evidence even from just the LotR, direct or indirect, that seems to imply that the Rings actually were not in the possession of the Nazgul, but of Sauron. But I still tend to bear the part TM quoted as one of great importance, because it says pretty explicitely that Sauron it was who had the Rings in possession. This would probably be for a debate about the canon, which, of course...

Another quote from the Silmarillion:

Originally Posted by Of the Rings of Power

It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand;

Here, when interpretated literally, this is another word by Gandalf - so about the same value as the one quoted from the Council - and here he speaks of Sauron gathering all the Rings to his hand. This is actually what I imagined: that Sauron, after the Second-age fiasco, was now really gathering the Rings back, not any more to give them to someone else, but to hold them and be the true Lord of (all) the Rings. Because when he had the One back, he wouldn't need some other Rings to control some Dwarves or Elves or Men, as it is said, it would be "ultimate victory" for him. And he, in my opinion, didn't need the nine Men to wear the Nine from the moment they turned into Ringwraith, because they already had only a will of his own, and not of theirs.

[The Might]

Indeed...that's a pretty clear contradiction

I took a look at tuckburough.net (along with the EoA my favourite encyclopedia) and on the page about the Nine Rings there is a pretty clear note:

Sauron is said to be in possession of the Nine Rings in The Fellowship of the Ring, p. 61 and 382; Unfinished Tales, p. 338 and 343; Letter #246. However, in The Fellowship of the Ring, p. 263, it says "The Nine the Nazgul keep."

It seems they have also noticed this exact contradiction.
Was this something Gandalf was wrong about?

[narfforc]

My first instinct was to say that the rings were with Sauron, what made me change my mind was Gandalf's words at The Council, some wise people are present and none contradict the statement that Gandalf makes , however I will concede that in other parts of LotRs this is contradicted, if this is so it is Tolkien to blame not Gandalf.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Sure But what you say is exactly what I thought: when you showed me the quote, I was pretty convinced that this might be actually the evidence we seek to say: "Yes, the Nazgul had the Rings." However, the more we dig into it, the more it seems we are losing in it.

[Morwen]

Gandalf's statement to Frodo in Shadow of the Past, that Sauron, at that point, held the Nine makes more sense to me than his later assertion at the the Council of Elrond, "the nine the Nazgul keep". Since Sauron no longer had the One Ring that would rule all the others, it seems to make sense that he needs the Nine in his possession to ensure his link to and dominance of the Ringwraiths.


Still, between his 1st and second assertions, Gandalf did encounter some of the Nazgul at Weathertop. Perhaps he learned something in that encounter that caused him to alter his view as to who held the Nine. But if that is the case he doesn't mention it at the Council.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Remember "'His cat,' he says, though she owns him not?" Or "I pray the Lord my soul to keep?" Tolkien loves inversions and old phrasings, and Gandalf may well be saying "The Nine keep the Nazgul."

More likely, he never noticed or corrected this statement after he had thought more about the problem. Sauron after he lost the One simply couldn't exercise dominion over the Nazgul if they still had their Rings: they would have been free agents.

The most extensive discussion of the matter is found in Letter #246, which in part discusses what would have happened at the Sammath Naur without Gollum's intervention.

Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring....they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of [Frodo's] that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

I doubt it gets more explicit than that.