Beardless

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Which characters exactly? The bearded characters that immediately come to my mind are dwarves and Cirdan. Well I suppose dwarves are characters of "less stature" but who are the bearded characters of "less nobility" and "mixed blood"?

Well I did say that I couldn't explain it for charactes such as Cirdan and Gandalf. The characters of "less nobility" and "mixed blood" I was referring to was the common man, the people without Numenorean blood or Elvish blood.

[ninja91]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Well I did say that I couldn't explain it for charactes such as Cirdan and Gandalf.

Well, Gandalf is ancient, and it is fitting for him to have a beard. I dont think that in his case there is a question of nobility. The beard just enhances his character as he smokes his pipe or thoughtfully strokes his... beard.

[Morwen]

Well I did say that I couldn't explain it for charactes such as Cirdan and Gandalf. The characters of "less nobility" and "mixed blood" I was referring to was the common man, the people without Numenorean blood or Elvish blood.

But were Numenoreans beardless? I don't recall if Tolkien actually says that they were. He does make such a specific comment about Hobbits IIRC in The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party (though in the Prologue to LotR he only specfically says that the Harfoots are beardless). Unless there is a similar statement about the Numenoreans (and I do not say that there is not), why should we assume that as a race they were beardless?

That aside, there are number of very different characters described as having beards:Cirdan, Gandalf, Saruman, Theoden, Ghan-buri-Ghan (who is described as having a "scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin as dry moss"), Beorn. I therefore don't think of beards as something Tolkien assigned to characters to indicate a lack of nobility; but that he simply visualised certain characters as bearded.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Morwen

But were Numenoreans beardless? I don't recall if Tolkien actually says that they were. He does make such a specific comment about Hobbits IIRC in The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party (though in the Prologue to LotR he only specfically says that the Harfoots are beardless). Unless there is a similar statement about the Numenoreans (and I do not say that there is not), why should we assume that as a race they were beardless?

That aside, there are number of very different characters described as having beards:Cirdan, Gandalf, Saruman, Theoden, Ghan-buri-Ghan (who is described as having a "scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin as dry moss"), Beorn. I therefore don't think of beards as something Tolkien assigned to characters to indicate a lack of nobility; but that he simply visualised certain characters as bearded.

That makes sense. I don't know for sure that there is a quote saying Numenoreans were beardless, but I recall so many people saying it. Does anybody have this quote?!?!

[Anáwiel]

In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above).

My father first wrote here (emending it to the text given at the time of writing): 'But we have to go on, and we have to cross the mountains here or go back. The passes further south are too far away, and were all guarded years ago - they lead straight into the country of the [Beardless Men Mani Aroman >] Horsemen.' In the rewritten passage, the reference to the passes further south is removed, but it reappears a little later: 'further south the passes are held' (cf. FR p. 300: Further south there are no passes, till one comes to the Gap of Rohan').

The Stoors were broader, heavier in build, and had less hair on their feet and more on their chins, and preferred flat lands and riversides. [Added: Their feet and hands were large.] The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; they preferred highlands and hill-sides. [Added: Their hands and feet were neat and nimble.] The Fallohides were fairer of skin and often of hair, and were taller than the others; they were lovers of trees and woodlands. [Added: All Hobbits were 'good shots' with stone, sling or bow, but the Fallohides were the surest on the mark.] The Stoors [> Harfoots] had much to do with Dwarves in ancient times, and long lived in the foothills of the Misty Mountains.

These are the only three quotes, containing the word beardless, I found in my e-books, all from HoME. No mentioning of beardless Númenoreans. In fact, Beregond of Gondor (and if I am not mistaken, the Númenoreans are the ancestors of the Men of Gondor), mentions to Pippin that the hobbit has seen more than the 'greybeards' of his nation.
But as Tolkien contradicts himself often, as we see in the first quote, it may cetrainly be, that he mentioned somewhere Men without beard.

[Morwen]

QUOTE] Quote:
The Stoors were broader, heavier in build, and had less hair on their feet and more on their chins, and preferred flat lands and riversides. [Added: Their feet and hands were large.] The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; they preferred highlands and hill-sides. [Added: Their hands and feet were neat and nimble.] The Fallohides were fairer of skin and often of hair, and were taller than the others; they were lovers of trees and woodlands. [Added: All Hobbits were 'good shots' with stone, sling or bow, but the Fallohides were the surest on the mark.] The Stoors [> Harfoots] had much to do with Dwarves in ancient times, and long lived in the foothills of the Misty Mountains.

[/QUOTE] Ah, the bearded Stoors. It is said of the hobbits of the Eastfarthing that they were "Stoors in a large part of their blood, as indeed was shown by the don that many grew on their chines." By contrast "(n)o Harfoot or Fallohide had any trace of a beard". (LotR, Prologue:Concerning Hobbits)
So to amend my earlier statement hobbits, with the exception of those with Stoor ancestry, are beardless.

Quote:
In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above).

So, Men with elven ancestry are beardless; those with strictly human ancestry are not (what volume of HoME is the above quote from by the way?)

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Anáwiel

These are the only three quotes, containing the word beardless, I found in my e-books, all from HoME. No mentioning of beardless Númenoreans. In fact, Beregond of Gondor (and if I am not mistaken, the Númenoreans are the ancestors of the Men of Gondor), mentions to Pippin that the hobbit has seen more than the 'greybeards' of his nation.
But as Tolkien contradicts himself often, as we see in the first quote, it may cetrainly be, that he mentioned somewhere Men without beard.

I didn't get the second quote, really. Was it saying that the men of Rohan were beardless? That's kind of confusing, and we know Theoden had a beard.

"Greybeards" are probably the common folk of Gondor, most likely not the ones with Numenorean blood...

thank you for the quotes! Much appreciated...it's a confusing subject...

[Formendacil]

The quote in question isn't from the HoME, but from Unfinished Tales, unless I am vastly mistaken. From the section on Nimrodel in "The Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn", possibly a footnote. (All that is a guess... I could be way off.)

However, I am quite certain that I am NOT way off when I say that nowhere ever printed or referred to in print, did Tolkien EVER write anything saying that Númenoreans were unbearded. Even his statement on the Elves is contradictory with the image of Elves shown elsewhere, as already demonstrated by Thranduil and Círdan.