I now pronounce you Dwarf & Hobbit...oops!

[The Might]

Interesting topic there
And personally if I were a player there, which I am not, I would definitely like to live in a world as close to Tolkien's M-e as possible
I wouldn't want to see neither gay Elves nor Hobbits married with Dwarves, no matter if the players want that or not
The game, in my opinion, should have certain rules that keep it within the boundaries set by Tolkien
The problem is, this is just my opinion and after all it doesn't really count a lot
The purpose of the game is to make money and I'm sure if enough people request new rules to enable such things, this will be granted...
In the end, I don't really care, I never really liked MMORPG anyway

[Durelin]

Geez, guys! Cut Turbine some slack... I don't think anyone here knows enough about the company to say that all the people care about is money.... And the issue here is not money - it's essentially politics, and the personal feelings of the people in the company.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Geez, guys! Cut Turbine some slack... I don't think anyone here knows enough about the company to say that all the people care about is money.... And the issue here is not money - it's essentially politics, and the personal feelings of the people in the company.

I suspect money is the over-riding issue - they snapped up the rights in order to make money. And the money they're making is off the back of Tolkien's hard work over more than half a century. If this was a generic fantasy world no-one would be that interested in getting involved. This is about getting fans of the books & the movie on line - & shelling out money to Turbine for the privilege. I suspect that 'politics' is only an issue because Turbine realise that whichever way they jump they'll alienate some players, & they're trying to find a way to stay on the fence if they can, & keep as many on board as possible.

I suspect where politics is an issue is for some of those objecting to the ban on same sex marriages in the game - who seem to have little or no interest at all in Tolkien's creation, & the ethics & philosophy underlying it - & who are more interested in political correctness than in Tolkien's work.

Surely there comes a point when this M-e becomes simply another on-line fantasy world.

But, would that be a great loss? I wonder - if players were bound by the 'hard' rules Tolkien gave, would that not produce a much more interesting experience for the players?

[The 1,000 Reader]

In my opinion, fanfiction and ME should never mix.

[The Saucepan Man]

It's not a crime to make money, you know ...

Originally Posted by davem

I suspect money is the over-riding issue - they snapped up the rights in order to make money.

Yes, and I suspect that they paid hansomely for those rights. Incidentally, who granted them the rights? The Estate? Saentz?

In any event, the rights originally lay with Tolkien himself. Once they were sold, he (and, by succession, the Estate) gave up any right to complain about what was done with them (subject to the terms of the contract by which they were granted).

Originally Posted by davem

I suspect where politics is an issue is for some of those objecting to the ban on same sex marriages in the game - who seem to have little or no interest at all in Tolkien's creation, & the ethics & philosophy underlying it - & who are more interested in political correctness than in Tolkien's work.

Its not an issue of political correctness. Homesexuality is a fact of life, not a cause. Is it right that this game should either exclude gay people or else force them to play a role with which they do not feel comfortable?

Originally Posted by davem

But, would that be a great loss? I wonder - if players were bound by the 'hard' rules Tolkien gave ...

I may be wrong, but I am not aware of any instance of Tolkien explicitly stating that same sex relationships did not exist in Middle-earth. Not am I aware of any "rule" in M-e preventing Dwarves and Hobbits falling in love.

Btw, do Balrogs have wings in this game? Can they fly?

[Durelin]

You know, after a bit more thought, I really can't see how the marriage system will have any real effect on the dynamics of the game, anyway, except on the personal level, so...why not allow it?

Originally Posted by SPM

Its not an issue of political correctness. Homesexuality is a fact of life, not a cause. Is it right that this game should either exclude gay people or else force them to play a role with which they do not feel comfortable?

It shouldn't be an issue of political correctness, but ultimately the company's decision-making is likely going to be affected considerably by politics. Not just because of losing some players (they could lose players with either decision I expect), but because of what kind of media-coverage the company and the game will get.

As for the "evils" of Turbine making money - I tend to doubt the higher-ups in any company, but I expect most of those working on the project are people who have wanted to live in ME at one point in their life, and running around as a virtual person in a virtual rendition of it is probably of personal interest to them. I can't see anyone working on one game for so long without some interest.

The fantasy RPGs of all sorts all have their roots in Tolkien, and yes, the movies did open up the possibility of such a largescale video game, but...is that really so bad? Everquesters and WoWers need to be introduced to where all their elves and orcs/orks were taken (stolen? ) from!

Edit: When I was talking about the company "fearing the media," so to speak, I don't think of that as showing that the company is somehow "moraless." I mean, it's a company, and particularly with how the media will jump on anything today, they have every reason to be careful for that...well, reason.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I tend to doubt the higher-ups in any company ...

You know, just like "normal" people, some can be good, some can be bad and some can be indifferent. Trust me on this.

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Yes, and I suspect that they paid hansomely for those rights. Incidentally, who granted them the rights? The Estate? Saentz?

Well, originally Vivendi Universal Games negotiated the rights from (and I could very well be mistaken) the Saul Zaentz company, and then Turbine bought the license from Vivendi after some protracted time of development.

Originally Posted by Durelin

You know, after a bit more thought, I really can't see how the marriage system will have any real effect on the dynamics of the game, anyway, except on the personal level, so...why not allow it?

Or, since marriage is only an aesthetic, why have it all? If people are so adamant about 'roleplaying' in the game, they can certainly roleplay marriage as well without having Turbine provide some sort of system.

Do people no longer trust their imaginations?

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Its not an issue of political correctness. Homesexuality is a fact of life, not a cause. Is it right that this game should either exclude gay people or else force them to play a role with which they do not feel comfortable?

But no-one's being forced to play the game at all. I didn't say homosexuality was a 'cause' in itself - but I think getting it into this game is a 'cause' for certain individuals involved in this -

An editor with GayGamer.net called Davidson’s explanation “a giant cop-out”: “Now that such a feature's been banned, I worry that the decision will help foster homophobic comments and behavior within the game's universe,” he wrote.

Now this strikes me as a perfect example - 'If gay marriage is not allowed in the game it will result in homophobic behaviour & comments'. That doesn't follow at all.

The point is, whether we approve or not, gay marriage is not soemthing that happens in M-e. Tolkien was a bit of a fan of family trees & there are no family trees which show same sex marriages, nor any mentions of same sex unions - or unions across racial divides - apart from Elves & Humans (yes, I know there's also the Melian-Thingol thing, but that's another exception that proves a rule). Now, Tolkien wasn't ignorant - he was obviously aware of the fact of homosexuality. But he chose not to include it in his creation. Maybe that was for artistic reasons, maybe it was for religious reasons - or maybe some long lost text will turn up giving the reason for the absence of homosexuality/same sex relationships in M-e terms.

The whole point is, this would be to introduce something into the world that doesn't exist in Tolkien's creation. To permit same sex unions into the world changes it - you're attempting to move it towards a 21st century liberal (or libertarian) utopia, & impose 21st century values. The 'if its logically possible' argument doesn't work - its logically possible that the Romans could have invented firearms - the raw materials to construct them & the necessary chemicals to make gunpowder were around. But the fact is that the Romans didn't have guns, & introducing guns into a role playing game set in ancient Rome would wreck any historical 'truth' the game had.

If anyone has a real problem with 'X' being banned (ie never having existed in the first place) from M-e I'll happily write them a note excusing them from playing...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

But no-one's being forced to play the game at all.

No, but then they are being excluded from something which they might have been keen to participate in.

Originally Posted by davem

Now this strikes me as a perfect example - 'If gay marriage is not allowed in the game it will result in homophobic behaviour & comments'. That doesn't follow at all.

Sorry, I get your point now. I agree with you on that.

Originally Posted by davem

Now, Tolkien wasn't ignorant - he was obviously aware of the fact of homosexuality. But he chose not to include it in his creation.

He was also aware of the existence of ostriches, but chose not to include them in his creation. Does that mean that they don't exist in M-e? Can we not infer from the fact that something occurs naturally in our world that it also occurs in M-e (or that it is at least capable of occuring in M-e), provided that it is not inconsisitent with anything that he did write about? Tolkien did not specifically refer to same sex relationships, but their existence is not inconsistent with anything that he wrote.

Originally Posted by davem

To permit same sex unions into the world changes it - you're attempting to move it towards a 21st century liberal (or libertarian) utopia, & impose 21st century values.

I do not dispute that same sex marriages (ie formalised unions) do not exist in M-e. But that does not preclude same sex relationships (which have occured throughout our history).