Turin the Hopeless?

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Well, this doesn't seem to be accurate in light of earlier comments, which I trust are accurate, that Children of Hurin was meant to be part of a trilogy along with Gondolin and Beren & Luthien. JRRT's intent, then, would seem to have been some light, whereas due to the exigencies of JRR's and Christopher's limited time, only the one book comes to light.

Yes - or if the Turinsaga was read as part of The Sil as a whole - or if the prophecy of Turin's ultimate defeat of Morgoth had been included. I'm talking about CoH as we now have it - as a standalone work, & the effect it has on the reader. Tolkien could have (simply by including that prophecy) have introduced a glimmer of hope into CoH. He chose deliberately not to do that. Hence, we have a post-Christian novel (not, as I stated a 'fairy story' according to Tolkien's own rules). I asked at the start (only half jokingly) whether LotR should be appended to CoH to give the reader that glimpse of final victory).

One can put it down to 'the exigencies of JRR's and Christopher's limited time', (or 'chance - if chance you call it') but what I'm arguing is that the work as we have it is a perfect post-Christian/post-religious novel, & therefore a much more contemporary work than LotR.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

That would have turned it into a fairy story, with a 'happily ever after' ending. Tolkien could have turned up the lights at the end. Instead he blows out the candle & leaves the reader alone in the darkness. That is his intent, that's the story he wanted to tell.

There's something in all of this also which points to some of the events of the Twentieth century - people fighting beyond hope, without any, but fighting because there was no choice. I'm thinking of events such as the Battle of Stalingrad or even the Miner's Strike (yes, really!) where there was no option but to stand up and fight - it was either that or lay down dead and accept Fate. And indeed, the Somme itself was this kind of battle; it was 'pre-ordained', 'fated', however you want to call it - those involved had no choice but to go over the top and in all likelihood lose their lives and the battle.

[davem]

Just on the point of reading CoH 'in the context of' the Legendarium, & supplying the missing 'hope' either via the ultimate victory over Morgoth at the end of the First Age, over Sauron at the end of the Third, or in terms of the Prophecy & Turin's ultimate defeat of Morgoth – it seems to me that the problem with that is that it reduces CoH to 'more of the same'. The vision is the same as in LotR – there is darkness that is ultimately defeated & good wins out. From that point of view CoH is unnecessary & tells us nothing new.

However, CoH as a story without ultimate hope, where the hero is destroyed by a fate he cannot understand or hope to conquer (he hopes, but his hope actually betrays him), it seems to me is something unique from the pen of Tolkien & shouldn't be seen as merely a part of something else. To bring hope from the wider Legendarium is in a way to cheapen the tragedy – as if it was to turn out that Niniel wasn't really Nienor, that it was just a case of mistaken identity, & to have her turn up at the end with Hurin & Morwen after the death of Glaurung & to even have Niniel have fallen onto a ledge just below the precipice, so that everyone could live happily ever after. That would be a perfect Eucatastrophe, revealing a light & joy beyond the walls of the world, & make the tragedy more palatable. For Tolkien to deliberately miss out any hope or joy from the story is more than an interesting curiosity. As I said, we may wish that the world was like LotR, we may even believe that in the end it will be, that there will be an ultimate victory of good over evil, but what we know (after the Somme, Auschwitz, Hiroshima, 9/11, after all the personal tragedies we live through) is that the world is more like the one we see in CoH. We are more like Turin than Frodo.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

...if you take the story of CoH just by itself, without the context, was something else. Well, maybe not even intention, but just what he thought like when writing the story. I'll leave this to professional Tolkienologists, but as I mentioned much earlier, I think Tolkien was greatly inspired by Béowulf in many things he did, and I believe here this fact also takes part. I just stumbled upon this in the "Monsters and critics" (1936):
(I am really sorry, it's merely my translation - don't have original available - but I hope I haven't screwed up the main points while translating it.)

(about the author of Béowulf)...The poet looks back into the past, overlooking the history of kings and warriors of old tradition, and sees, that all the fame (we could say also "culture" or "tradition") ends in night. It does not come to solving that tragedy - this does not flow from the subject. What we have in front of us is actually a poem... looking back into the depths of time, written by a man acknowledged with ancient stories, who tries in all possible ways to look into them all in sort of a global perspective, when still perceiving the tragedy of fatal doom, which connects them, though still he feels them in a more poetic sense, because he himself is not anymore immediately threatened by the weigh of its hopelesness. The old dogma - hopelesness of the event connected with the faith in the way of hopeless resistance - he could see from outside and at the same time immediately and thoroughly feel it.

...we could say that this poem was inspired (from one part) by the dispute... are we going or are we not going to give over our pagan predecessors to condemnation? ...the creator of Béowulf showed the true value of that pietas which preserves and keeps like a treasure the memory of battles of man in dark pasttime, a man fallen but not yet redeemed, fallen to disfavour, but not dethroned.

The boldened part is mine and for me it actually is the key element here. Tolkien speaks about how he imagines the author of Béowulf thought, and I actually am inclined to think that the above can be in (some ways, of course) adopted to Tolkien's creation of the story of Túrin (among others). In my opinion, it might not be at all reflecting the situation in reality, it was just a free intention of the writer to write a story like these of "ancient days, when dark was dark and in darkness it ended". Whether it was or was not consistent with the Legendarium (in which the Light ultimately prevails) then might or might not bother him, and questions like whether Tolkien thought that in the context we would know the light will shine or whether he just haven't had the time to solve this somehow are probably just left to speculation.

[davem]

I think Tolkien is correct – up to a point. The Beowulf poet doesn't so much reflect the actual Pagan worldview so much as the Christian understanding of it. The Pagans weren't without hope – they didn't go around under a cloud, feeling depressed & hopeless. They were, like us post Christians for the most part, quite happy. However, they lived, again for the most part, in dangerous, violent times & didn't look much 'beyond the walls of the world' for hope or much else.

I think the same could be said of the Christian/religious understanding of the post-Christian/non relgious world view. It is not without hope, but it doesn't focus on anything beyond the world either during life or after death.

Turin doesn't look for hope or salvation from beyond the world, but faces the monsters within it with courage & determination – so, it isn't so much the tragic aspect of his story that makes it post religious – that's a side issue for the moment – it’s the fact that he doesn't look for any help to come from outside, for any divine intervention. He deals with his problems as best he can.

Tolkien may well have written from the perspective of a Christian looking back from a safe distance on a world without supernatural hope, or belief in a divine guiding hand, but what he has written is a work that lookedforward to a similar world.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

One can put it down to 'the exigencies of JRR's and Christopher's limited time', (or 'chance - if chance you call it') but what I'm arguing is that the work as we have it is a perfect post-Christian/post-religious novel, & therefore a much more contemporary work than LotR.

I hope not, because contemporaneity has as its corollary that this work will some day become passé; which I highly doubt.

It is, however, perfectly honorable to say that one likes one work better than another by the same author because it jibes with one's beliefs.

[Sir Kohran]

Absolutely fantastic posts, everyone.

Do we admire Turin? He is, on the surface, a hero - he slays Morgoth's ultimate 'WMD'. He defies his fate. The 'incest' is hardly a 'sin' because he is not aware that Niniel is his sister, so he cannot be blamed for it. But is his suicide a 'sin'? From a 'Christian' viewpoint, yes, but from a Pagan one, or a pre- or post Christian one it is not - necessarily. It is a tragic end for a tragic hero. In the pre-/post-Christian worldview there is no moral judgement. Turin can commit suicide without being judged 'sinful' because in the world of the story his act is tragic but understandable, & he is still a 'hero', because he hasn't 'broken the rules'.

Yet, if Frodo had thrown himself on Sting at the end of LotR we would have been shocked. It would have been 'against the rules'., because while LotR is not a 'Christian' story it is one where a deity is a guiding force, & certain rules apply. Denethor ought not commit suicide either, because that act is against the rules. The fact that he does makes him wrong. Turin & Nienor are not wrong in taking their own lives. In fact, if Mablung had done a 'Gandalf' & started 'moralising' to Turin about having 'no authority' to take his life we'd have responded by thinking him a prig. Gandalf is not a prig - Gandalf is right to upbraid Denethor about neglecting his duty, because in the world of LotR there are certain rules - but those rules do not apply in the world of CoH, which is both an older & a more contemporary one.

I do admire Turin. But not for being a hero, for slaying the dragon and being such a great warrior...but for failing. I can empathize with him exactly. He drives forward, blundering through his life, blindly fighting and failing, achieving small successes but overall making mistakes everywhere. And that's how my life really is. I'm not like Aragorn or Ecthelion or Faramir or Eomer or Gandalf or Elendil; I don't live a perfect life with epic achievements at every throw. I don't defeat my enemies; more often than not they defeat me. I don't have a stunningly good record, I've done many things I'm ashamed of. But like Turin, the victory or defeat is not important - what is important is the trying. I admire Turin for trying at life and failing - for being weak and breakable. It sounds like a paradox. But for some reason I like him, more than most of Tolkien's other characters.

I think it's right to say that Turin and indeed the world he lives in are much more like our modern time. The world of The Lord Of The Rings is the time around and after World War II. You can see plenty of parallels. Though both the real war and the War of the Ring are devastating, they are also 'glorious', in a way - the 'good' leaders are inspirations to their soldiers through the speeches of Churchill and Theoden, the heroes' cause is just, the enemies are clearly evil and need to be defeated whether they are Orcs or Nazis, the battles are decisive victories from Pelennor Fields to the Bulge, the good guys win in the end as the Dark Tower falls and Hitler is found dead, and happiness is achieved as people in both worlds celebrate the epic victory. The people are strong - they believe in their ideals and faith, as Damrod invokes the Valar to protect him and Allied soldiers pray before battle. Even through the dark nights of the Blitz and the enemies besieging Minas Tirith, there is always that comfort at the back of our minds that God is there with us, on our side, supporting us in everything we do, and assuring the eventual victory. Whilst the impact and effects of both wars is felt even after them, through both the Cold War and the Scouring of the Shire, ultimately good has won. Though thousands die in World War Two, a new, safer generation will take over, just as when Frodo departs forever, Sam and the other hobbits rebuild their realm to an even better state than it was before.

The world of The Children Of Hurin, in contrast, is much bleaker, as is perhaps our own world. No longer do we have the unshakeable comfort of God in the back of our minds - many people now question the credibility and even the worth of religion, just as no-one can tell Turin where his dead sister has gone, because none of them can quite agree or even understand. Questions that were once obvious now stand unanswered. No longer are the wars glorious, simple and decisive - just as Fingon confidently looked out over his armies and allies, and drove forward against Morgoth, so did George Bush and the Coalition armies drive into Iraq, confident of victory. And in both situations the outcome was terrible, as the well-laid plans and sturdy soldiers and epic speeches went awry and dismayed both worlds. The 'bad guys' are no longer so obvious, nor as defeatable as they once were - Turin never gets his chance at defeating Morgoth because he is constantly deceived and turned aside by him, just as hidden criminals and corrupt politicians walk freely upon our streets. People are not as united as they once were - Turin encounters distrust in most places he visits and in fact spreads much of it himself. Our world is much less certain, just as Turin's is, the people less strong, the orders less firm. We are no longer in the comfortable, safe world of The Lord Of The Rings in the 20th Century - now we live in the grim, insecure world of the The Children Of Hurin in the 21st Century.

[davem]

Tolkien must have seen it happening - perhaps that's why he chose to focus on CoH rather than Beren & Luthien & The Fall of Gondolin. Both those tales offer a sense of hope to the reader - Gondolin may fall, but Tuor & Idril escape with Earendel.

Actually, the 'War on Terror' was in my mind too as I read CoH. While evil is clearly present in Morgoth & Glaurung, good is not so clearly present. There is confusion, selfishness, pride & hopelessness on the 'good' side. For all its 'mythological' setting & characters CoH seems to me one of the most insightful comments on where we are right now. There are a lot of novels around which attempt to explore the state of our world at the beginning of the 21st century, but CoH, it seems to me, is perhaps one of the profoundest.

Which is not to claim it as an 'allegory' - clearly it cannot be, given when it was written - but as far as 'applicability' goes, its not far to seek...

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

I do admire Turin. But not for being a hero, for slaying the dragon and being such a great warrior...but for failing. I can empathize with him exactly. He drives forward, blundering through his life, blindly fighting and failing, achieving small successes but overall making mistakes everywhere. And that's how my life really is. I'm not like Aragorn or Ecthelion or Faramir or Eomer or Gandalf or Elendil; I don't live a perfect life with epic achievements at every throw. I don't defeat my enemies; more often than not they defeat me. I don't have a stunningly good record, I've done many things I'm ashamed of. But like Turin, the victory or defeat is not important - what is important is the trying. I admire Turin for trying at life and failing - for being weak and breakable. It sounds like a paradox. But for some reason I like him, more than most of Tolkien's other characters.

The description here of admiration reads like sympathy. Which brings to mind the way many of us are sympathetic to Sméagol, and for the same reasons. Maybe a new thread ought to be started on it, but I'll broach the question anyway: Is Túrin most like Sméagol of all the characters in LotR?

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The description here of admiration reads like sympathy. Which brings to mind the way many of us are sympathetic to Sméagol, and for the same reasons. Maybe a new thread ought to be started on it, but I'll broach the question anyway: Is Túrin most like Sméagol of all the characters in LotR?

Don't think so, but I'm not sure in what way you mean 'like' Smeagol. I could see the argument that he is 'like' Boromir, who is also a flawed hero. Yet Boromir repents at the end, admits he was wrong. Turin never does, even at the very end. He admits he failed, but he never, unlike Boromir, repents of his 'sin', & doesn't see his death as either punishment or atonement. Boromir gives his life, Turin takes his. I suppose one could also argue that Boromir loses his life while Turin casts his away. Yet....

Turin, it seems to me, realised at the end that he would never be the hero he wanted to be, that as long as he lived he would be Morgoth's fool, & ended his life almost as an act of defiance. Its perfectly correct to say that he was mastered by his doom, yet in another way he did master his doom - by ending his life he put an end to his doom. Hence even his suicide could be seen as an act of defiance as much as one of despair.

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The description here of admiration reads like sympathy. Which brings to mind the way many of us are sympathetic to Sméagol, and for the same reasons. Maybe a new thread ought to be started on it, but I'll broach the question anyway: Is Túrin most like Sméagol of all the characters in LotR?

Not really sympathy...more like empathy. In Turin's misguided attempts at greatness, ending in failure yet somehow still achieving something, I see many similarities with myself.

I never felt sorry for him, not in any great way. I felt bad for him, but ultimately he brought a lot of it on himself - just I do with certain things, so again I could empathize with him.

[Maédhros]

Would J.R.R. Tolkien have allowed such a work as CoH to be published as Christopher did? Or would JRRT have revised it so as to weave in a glimmer of hope? Who knows?

And of course, Tolkien wrote the Narn as we have it after completing LotR, so in terms of composition we are also dealing with a post-'religious' work. Tolkien tells the story of a great victory (LotR) first, & follows it up with a tale of despair & defeat without hope.

I'm in total disagreement with this. I don't think that there is a story in all of Tolkien's Legendarium that has more hope in it than the Narn i Chîn Húrin. Let's see:

From Unfinished Tales: Narn i Chîn Húrin

"You say it," said Morgoth. "I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of all the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."

Can Morgoth actually do this to a person in particular that is not in his grasp? No he cannot. Does it help that Morgoth is really against you? It really hinders the person though.
From Morgoth's Ring: Ainulindalë

But to Men I will give a new gift.'
§39 Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to fashion their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else. And of their operation everything should be, in shape and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. Lo! even we, Elves, have found to our sorrow that Men have a strange power for good or ill, and for turning things aside from the purpose of Valar or of Elves; so that it is said among us that Fate is not master of the children of Men; yet are they blind, and their joy is small, which should be great.

In Arda, it is almost dominated by Morgoth, after the defeat of the Ñoldor in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. You have Doriath that is isolated from the rest of ME, Gondolin which is hidden and Nargothrond, there are other minor elven enclaves and some scatter Men. Túrin was sent by Morwen to Doriath to have a better future, but she remains in Dor-Lomín with Nienor.
Túrin grows and becomes a great warrior, but because of the incident with Saeros (he has a new name now in the CoH) instead of relying in the judgement of his foster father Thingol he leaves, never to return again. Did Morgoth make him do this? No.
Túrin with the outlaws, was given an opportunity by Beleg to return to Doriath, but Túrin refuses. Was that Morgoth's doing? No.
Túrin kills Beleg when he is rescued. That was a big boo boo by him, and he goes to Nargothrond. Does Túrin forces Orodreth into open warfare with Morgoth? No, Orodreth had his own mind, but he was swayed by Túrin. Nargothrond is destroyed, but he is spared.
Nargothrond could not beat the armies of Morgoth, if they had decided to keep hiding, they would have fallen sooner or later.
Glaurung bewitches Túrin into leaving Findulias, leading to the events of going into Brethil and marrying his sister. But he ultimately kills Glaurung, but the thing is that his sister kills herself. Then he learns the truth about Nienor and kills himself.

And yet, even with all this, his mother (Morwen never looses hope).
From Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod an Andreth

'Have ye then no hope?' said Finrod.
'What is hope?' she said. 'An expectation of good, which though uncertain has some foundation in what is known? Then we have none.'
'That is one thing that Men call "hope",' said Finrod. 'Amdir we call it, "looking up". But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is "trust". It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy.

Morwen, was alone. Her 3 children were dead, and her husband was imprisioned in Angband with no hope of ever escaping, and yet she never lost hope that Húrin would return.
From Unfinished Tales: Narn i Chîn Húrin

"Prudence, not doubt," said Húrin; yet he looked troubled. "But one who looks forward must see this: that things will not remain as they were. This will be a great throw, and one side must fall lower than it now stands. If it be the Elven-kings that fall, then it must go evilly with the Edain; and we dwell nearest to the Enemy. But if things do go ill, I will not say to you: Do not be afraid! For you fear what should be feared, and that only; and fear does not dismay you. But I say: Do not wait! I shall return to you as I may, but do not wait! Go south as swiftly as you can; and I shall follow, and I shall find you, though I have to search through all Beleriand."

Why did she had still estel?
From the War of the Jewels: The Wanderins of Húrin

But Húrin did not look at the stone, for he knew what was written there, and, his eyes had seen that he was not alone. Sitting in the shadow of the stone there was a figure bent over its knees Some homeless wanderer broken with age it seemed, too wayworn to heed his coming; but its rags were the remnants of a woman's garb. At length as Húrin stood there silent she cast back her tattered hood and lifted up her face slowly, haggard and hungry as a long-hunted wolf. Grey she was, sharp-nosed with broken teeth, and with a lean hand she clawed at the cloak upon her breast. But suddenly her eyes looked into his, and then Húrin knew her; for though they were wild now and full of fear, a light still gleamed in them hard to endure: the elven-light that long ago had earned her her name, Eðelwen, proudest of mortal women in the days of old.
'Eðelwen! Eðelwen!' Húrin cried; and she rose and stumbled forward, and he caught her in his arms.
'You come at last,' she said. 'I have waited too long.
'It was a dark road. I have come as I could,' he answered.
'But you are late,' she said, 'too late. They are lost.'
'I know,' he said. 'But thou art not.'
'Almost,' she said. 'I am spent utterly. I shall go with the sun. They are lost.' She clutched at his cloak. 'Little time is left,' she said. 'If you know, tell me! How did she find him?'
But Húrin did not answer, and he sat beside the stone with Morwen in his arms; and they did not speak again. The sun went down, and Morwen sighed and clasped his hand and was still; and Húrin knew that she had died.
So passed Morwen the proud and fair; and Húrin looked down at her in the twilight, and it seemed that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. Cold and pale and stem was her face. 'She was not conquered,' he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat on unmoving beside her as night drew down.

It doesn't makes any sense, yet with all of that had happened to her and her family she never lost hope.

What the reader is given is not the whole story of Turin, but a version of the story, or if you will an 'episode'. But Tolkien chose to tell the story as he did, & it is a story of hopelessness, despair, & tragedy. It didn't have to be. He could have added the tale of Turin facing down & destroying Morgoth if he'd wanted to. Yet....

But that is exactly what happened:
From The Lost Road and other Writtings: Quenta Silmarillion

§31 Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

Or course, the Narn i Chîn Húrin, ends with the dead of Túrin and not with the fate of Morwen.

[davem]

Yes, but we're discussing CoH as a stand alone work, which it now is, & how a reader would take it if they hadn't (or didn't want to) read any of the other writings you mention. Most readers of CoH will not work their way through HoM-e.