The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-19-2007, 09:13 AM   #1
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Another reason Sauron is not due praise and adoration: He, like Gandalf, had Gollum in his grasp. He interrogates the wretch, then sends him out into the world to hunt for the Ring, hoping that the trail left by this one-thought-desire creature will lead him to his Precious. He even put a fear on the creature that Gandalf wasn't able to break with his pyrotechnics. Yet...

Unlike Gandalf, didn't the Eye see that Gollum would have a part to play in the end game? Did Sauron see this, yet remain hopeful that things would still 'fall' in his favor?

Gandalf knew; Sauron blew (it).
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2007, 01:19 PM   #2
Elmo
Pittodrie Poltergeist
 
Elmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again
Posts: 633
Elmo has just left Hobbiton.
A bit of a change of topic here, but does anyone else findit slightly uncomfortable that Tolkien connected atheism and Morgothism in Morgoth's Ring?
__________________
As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.
Elmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2007, 06:45 PM   #3
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 941
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Quote:
Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight
A bit of a change of topic here, but does anyone else findit slightly uncomfortable that Tolkien connected atheism and Morgothism in Morgoth's Ring?
"Morgothism" is not connected to atheism. Morgoth was a nihilist. He could personally never be an atheist because of his knowledge of and direct contact with Iluvatar; and anyone who worshipped Morgoth would consider him either God or the rightful ruler in defiance of God--obviously not atheistic beliefs either. Someone who imitated Morgoth's "philosophy" (at least, as much as it was outwardly discernible; he did not preach like a prophet, as far as I know) would be adopting a nihilistic ethos, not an atheistic one. Incidentally, I think nihilism is probably the only appropriate outlook for a being like Melkor, originally absolute in his rights and unmatched in potential, but ultimately utterly frustrated and diminished by his own inflexibility and intolerance of boundaries.

Relevant text from Myths Transformed:
Quote:
Morgoth had no 'plan': unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a 'plan'. But this is, of course, a simplification of the situation. Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure.
Quote:
Sauron was not a 'sincere' atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God's action in Arda). As was seen in the case of Ar-Pharazôn. But there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor's own terms: as a god, or even as God.
Quote:
[Sauron's] cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. But though Sauron's whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron (unlike Morgoth) would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.

Last edited by obloquy; 04-19-2007 at 06:57 PM.
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2007, 05:18 PM   #4
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
Unlike Gandalf, didn't the Eye see that Gollum would have a part to play in the end game? Did Sauron see this, yet remain hopeful that things would still 'fall' in his favor?
I doubt Sauron ever thought of such a possibility, as seen later in the decisions he makes. If he had considered this possibility, he would have made sure nothing would ever come into Mordor unwanted.

He probably thought that Gollum would never come close to repentance and would never lead anyone into Mordor, but would instead try to kill the Ringbearer and hide himself with the Ring somewhere, where he would eventually, sooner or later, be discovered by Sauron's minions.

Too much self-confidence...
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 08:07 AM   #5
alatar
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
 
alatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
What's even sadder about Morgoth, at first First amongst all of Eru's creations, is that, when he goes to Fëanor's door in attempt to woo Curufinwë to his cause, when the creator of the Silmarils realizes that Morgoth wants the gems for himself - and that he too is one of the Valar (jailers in Fëanor's mind) - Fëanor slams his door in the most powerful Vala's face like a so much unwanted door-to-door salesperson.

How humiliating! He didn't even know enough to stick his foot in the door...
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
alatar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 11:03 AM   #6
Elmo
Pittodrie Poltergeist
 
Elmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again
Posts: 633
Elmo has just left Hobbiton.
Poor Melkor, all he really wanted was to be loved.
__________________
As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.
Elmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:09 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.