Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by darkcorsair

I think it's clear that Balrogs gave the impression of winged creatures(Underhill's thing with Gimli thinking the flying creature was a Balrog and Frodo stating otherwise).

Interesting note, though, it does not help the real matter...

Because we all know that Balrogs gave the impression of winged creatures. The point is, if it was mere impression, or real wings...

[ElentariGreenleaf]

Well, ok, valid point about Tolkien not creating something with wings that can't fly.

Maybe they could originally fly, but over time they lost the use of their wings. I mean from their age, not through de-evolution. I mean, that Balrog that Gandalf blocked in Moria must have been ancient. I always imagine Balrogs to have wings like bats, so perhaps when a Balrog gets old the membranes start to get brittle and break so they can't fly any more. Either that, or all that fire eventually burns them away, lol. Though, were they fiery in the book? Its been so long since I've read it ^^;

Because we all know that Balrogs gave the impression of winged creatures. The point is, if it was mere impression, or real wings...

Hmm, perhaps Balrog's don't actually have wings, but perhaps something on their backs that look very much like wings. Possibly some kind of defence from attack? I mean, some Butterflys' wings have false eyes on them for their predators will attack their wings and not their body. Perhaps Balrogs "wings" were not meant for flying but as a distraction for an attacker? An intelligent attacker would perhaps try to disable wings to stop the target from flying off.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by ElentariGreenleaf

Maybe they could originally fly, but over time they lost the use of their wings. I mean from their age, not through de-evolution.

If anything, I would likely imagine them losing their wings because of their turning to evil, like for example Sauron or Morgoth lost the abilities to appear in different shapes later then.

Originally Posted by ElentariGreenleaf

I mean, that Balrog that Gandalf blocked in Moria must have been ancient. I always imagine Balrogs to have wings like bats, so perhaps when a Balrog gets old the membranes start to get brittle and break so they can't fly any more. Either that, or all that fire eventually burns them away, lol. Though, were they fiery in the book? Its been so long since I've read it ^^;

The wings were not fiery, but shadowy:

...and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings...

Originally Posted by ElentariGreenleaf

Hmm, perhaps Balrog's don't actually have wings, but perhaps something on their backs that look very much like wings. Possibly some kind of defence from attack? I mean, some Butterflys' wings have false eyes on them for their predators will attack their wings and not their body. Perhaps Balrogs "wings" were not meant for flying but as a distraction for an attacker? An intelligent attacker would perhaps try to disable wings to stop the target from flying off.

It's an interesting opinion, though I believe it was mentioned here by some as a possibility - but I find the idea of wings providing "distraction" quite inventive.

[Folwren]

Boromir...I am utterly confused. Didn't you vote that Balrog's do have wings? And yet you seem to speak for those of us who think they don't... It it's an attempt at sarcasm, it's not working.

-- Folwren

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

As we all know gigantic horned demons with enormous wings is far more appealing than a man-sized opponent that could manipulate fire and shadow. I mean we just have to watch the movies to see what people think 'looks' better.

Precisely. Hence, many people will, when they first read that passage (possibly influenced by Tolkien art etc) imagine a Balrog with wings. My point about the mind's eye trumping logic is relevant here. The impression conveyed by a text might be very different from its technical meaning, when logically deconstructed.

Whether Tolkien intended his Balrogs to be winged remains a moot point, but I would hazard a guess that many pro-wingers (and certainly myself) formed an impression of a winged Balrog on first reading the relevant passage and are now either disinclined or unable to reject it, regardless of the logic of the argument to the contrary. In my own case, my original impression was reinforced over time by artistic portrayals of the Balrog.

[Folwren]

Hm. I dunno, SPM. When I first read the book, I know I'd seen a painting by John Howe of the Balrog, and his Balrog had wings, I believe. But, when I read the book, I don't remembering actually thinking they had wings. It just seemed to me like some huge shadow and flame all mixed together.....no body, really, no wings...

-- Folwren

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Folwren

But, when I read the book, I don't remembering actually thinking they had wings. It just seemed to me like some huge shadow and flame all mixed together.....no body, really, no wings...

Which is why you're an anti-winger.

Obviously, not everyone will react in the same way to the text. My speculative theory, which is based upon my own experience, is really an attempt to explain why so many pro-wingers stick so tenaciously to their position, despite the contrary impression conveyed by the words used, when strictly and logically interpreted.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Balrogs being Maiar chose their own form (as Sauron did)...if they did choose a form with wings...what would be the purpose if not for flight? Therefor, it wouldn't make any sense as to why a Balrog would choose a form with wings yet were unable to fly. As there would be no purpose for the wings so why would they assume a form with wings?

Maybe. Or maybe they, like Melkor and Sauron, lost the ability to control how they appeared externally, presumably as a side-effect of becoming incarnate. If there were wings, they may have originally looked (and functioned) differently.

[Boromir88]

Hmm, perhaps Balrog's don't actually have wings, but perhaps something on their backs that look very much like wings.~Elentari

The problem with this is the Balrog is described as being 'man-shaped'. Something that is 'man-shaped' means it's form is that of a man's. I don't think something that is man-shaped would have bat wings (or something of that sort) coming out of his back. Just like if something was 'man-shaped' I wouldn't picture a 40-foot horned, and hooved, demon thing like Jackson portrays.

On top of that Durin's Bane was described as 'man-sized' and something man-sized simply wouldn't be able to have wings that when fully spread out reached to a 100 feet...but now I'm getting into repeating myself and so I'll just say this.

A lot of people think there is ambiguity and mystery surrounding the Balrog. They think nothing is known for certain and they're one giant enigma. That's not really true at all, I mean we're not dealing with Tom Bombadil here who Tolkien purposefully left as an enigma. Tolkien gave us a lot of information on his Balrogs, you just have to look for it, it's right there in the text. And I think the only reason people think there is a 'debate' over Balrog's is because of the movies and artists; who when looking at the text are not really even close to being accurate. As artists, and movie-makers are interested in selling their product, so they want to go for the 'coolest' looking pictures for their audience to make more money...and when you do that you often lose the accuracy. And then the public views these movies and pictures, gets these images stuck in their head and instead of looking at the text from an unbiased view, look at the text with the visualization of these distorted images in their head and try to find only things which support that visualization...like: 'and it's wings were spread from wall to wall.'...and completely disregard any other part of the text that plays a factor in determining whether the wings were merely an impression and metaphorical or were literal wings.

Don't get me wrong, because I don't want to sound mean or arrogant, but in most cases that's how it is.

I'll leave you with this...Here is a wonderful description Tolkien gives us of clouds...and it is precisely the same style he uses with Durin's Bane in Moria:

"And out of the west there would come at times a great cloud in the evening, shaped as it were an eagle, with pinions spread to the north and the south; and slowly it would loom up, blotting out the sunset, and then the uttermost night would fall upon Numenor. And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud."~The Akallabeth

Here Tolkien is describing clouds and he says the clouds were 'shaped as if it were an eagle'...there's the simile. Then he extends that simile to keep that imagery of clouds looking like eagles in the readers mind; with...and some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings.

Did the clouds morph into eagles? No, that's just Tolkien using language to the great extent that he was able to. He sets up the simile of clouds shaped like eagles, then to keep that imagery going he extends it and actually calls the clouds 'eagles.'

Same things happens in Gandalf's confrontation with Durin's Bane:

'...spread out like two vast wings.'

Then one moment later:

'...it's wings were spread from all to wall.'

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The problem with this is the Balrog is described as being 'man-shaped'. Something that is 'man-shaped' means it's form is that of a man's.

A man's what though Boro

Seriously, though most depictions of angels in western culture are man shaped and winged ..and winged with wings which could not possibly be capable of flight .. maybe they are symbolic wings...

[Finduilas]

It sounds to me as if SaucePanMan has admitted that his image of the Balrog is not the Balrog that Tolkien described, please correct me if I'm wrong. If I am correct in my thinking, this thread was a discussion on whether Tolkiens Balrogs have wings, not whether they could have wings, whether they look better with wings, or whether John Howe had a right to draw them with wings.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

It sounds to me as if SaucePanMan has admitted that his image of the Balrog is not the Balrog that Tolkien described, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not quite. My image is that which the passage conveyed to me, rather than that which a strict technical construction of the words used might convey.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

If I am correct in my thinking, this thread was a discussion on whether Tolkiens Balrogs have wings, not whether they could have wings, whether they look better with wings, or whether John Howe had a right to draw them with wings.

No, it is a discussion on whether Balrogs have wings. However, unless someone is able to establish with any certainty whether Tolkien intended them to have wings (and I doubt that anyone ever will), I regard this as a subjective issue. I have therefore answered the question from a subjective perspective and attempted to explain the reason for my answer. As far as I am concerned, Balrogs do have (fully functioning) wings.