Lord Melkor Rightful Master of the Fates of Arda

You people can thank the moderators for heavily censoring my posts, in which, while in the spirit, made a stunning and careless error, that you could have taken advantage of. WHAT A DRAG! IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PERFECT ILLISTRATION OF THE WISDOM OF GANDALF. I worried all day when in the midst of lifting over 3000 pounds in twenty minutes...."The magnitude of my folly was revealed to me in a blinding flash...." Wonder what it was? TOO BAD!!! I 'M NOT TELLING!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA OOOHHHH------(cough cough..uhckk ttwwoooo cough cough) AHHH HA HA HA HA unghckk cough cough cough)

I have a new thread that I think is just going to blow people away, sorry, I really do!
I'm going to write it soon, and it will be serious, and pure, and empirical, and GOOD.
I, We, promises to be very, very good. nice moderator! wretched we are wretched!
Neithan promises! He will be very very good! Nice Moderator! Don't censor us! don't censor us! achsss sss gollum!

[Thenamir]

Neithan, I'm unsure at this point whether you are a troll, a madman, or a thinker (of sorts), so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt at this point and attempt to see through the blinders you seem to think we're all wearing.

It is oft said that disasters bring out the best in people, or that without the contrast of the hard times we would never properly appreciate the good times, or that "every dark cloud has a silver lining". In this sense I can understand that, as Tolkien himself said, there would never have been certain beauties (as of snow) unless Melkor had brought the icy cold.

However, it is on one side of the line that one can assert that Eru can make make even the selfish evil of Morgoth work to his purposes, but let us not take the step over the line to assert that Melkor himself is good, or that evil in and of itself is good, thus confusing the two and removing all meaning from the words. The destruction and death that resulted from World War II can make us grateful for the life we have and the peace we enjoy, but let us not call Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito great men of history because of that reminder -- the price paid was far too high.

If good can be brought out as a result of evil, that does not justify the evil. The fact that Eru foresaw and incorporated all of the things that I quoted in my prior post, and eventually caused a the strength of evil to be overcome by the weakness of good, that is a testament not to the glory of Melkor for being a "free thinker", but to Eru, for taking Morgoth's free but twisted will and still making something good from it. Eru is therefore not a tyrant, as you claimed, but the true benevolent creator and savior of all.

You have said that the Valar are only puppets, aping what Eru "progammed" into them. Where Tolkien said that Iluvatar gave only a theme, a "subject" or "Guideline" from which they could use their individual gifts and talents to create the Music themselves:

Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will.

You have said that the Flame Imperishable is greater than Eru. Tolkien says the Fire itself is with Iluvatar and inseparable from him.

He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar.

He would have found what he was seeking if he had but turned TO Iluvatar rather than AWAY from him.

Of Sauron you say "they lie who say that He is a Tyrant wreathed in shadow." I do believe it was our beloved professor T. who wrote that of Sauron -- and I thought you despised those who altered his works and his vision.

You have said that Morgoth "hath made valleys, and Eru's slaves filled them; Melkor hath made mountains, and Eru hath cast them down", which is the very opposite of Tolkien's writing on that topic:

The Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them; and naught might have peace or come to lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it.

Finally, and I think perhaps this is a telling point, you ask "What would the world be without Melkor's Theme?" First of all, there was no "Melkor's Theme", only

a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice

But more to the point, if there had been no Melkor, theme or no theme, then we would all go on living our lives in the REAL world. For Melkor is a fiction, a non-entity, words on a page (albeit words of genius) composed by a man we all revere, but who in the last analysis, deplored the cult status his words attained. Let us never forget that.

I have not yet made up my mind whether you have some method to your madness, or if you're just one of those folks who wander in to a forum or chat spoiling for a fight, pushing everyone's hot buttons, and watching their predictable knee-jerk reactions. Or perhaps you just quaff too many pints, or there's something "special" in those ciggies you smoke, or perhaps that fried chicken is just a wee bit past its freshness date. Nevertheless, I perceive that there is some valuable intelligence behind this belligerent facade, and I hope that it can spill forth here with less rancor and more gentleness, less veiled vagueries and more directness.

I'm off to bed. I bid you and all my readers a good night.

Originally Posted by Thenamir

Neithan, I'm unsure at this point whether you are a troll, a madman, or a thinker (of sorts), so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt at this point and attempt to see through the blinders you seem to think we're all wearing.

It is oft said that disasters bring out the best in people, or that without the contrast of the hard times we would never properly appreciate the good times, or that "every dark cloud has a silver lining". In this sense I can understand that, as Tolkien himself said, there would never have been certain beauties (as of snow) unless Melkor had brought the icy cold.

However, it is on one side of the line that one can assert that Eru can make make even the selfish evil of Morgoth work to his purposes, but let us not take the step over the line to assert that Melkor himself is good, or that evil in and of itself is good, thus confusing the two and removing all meaning from the words. The destruction and death that resulted from World War II can make us grateful for the life we have and the peace we enjoy, but let us not call Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito great men of history because of that reminder -- the price paid was far too high.

If good can be brought out as a result of evil, that does not justify the evil. The fact that Eru foresaw and incorporated all of the things that I quoted in my prior post, and eventually caused a the strength of evil to be overcome by the weakness of good, that is a testament not to the glory of Melkor for being a "free thinker", but to Eru, for taking Morgoth's free but twisted will and still making something good from it. Eru is therefore not a tyrant, as you claimed, but the true benevolent creator and savior of all.

You have said that the Valar are only puppets, aping what Eru "progammed" into them. Where Tolkien said that Iluvatar gave only a theme, a "subject" or "Guideline" from which they could use their individual gifts and talents to create the Music themselves:

You have said that the Flame Imperishable is greater than Eru. Tolkien says the Fire itself is with Iluvatar and inseparable from him. He would have found what he was seeking if he had but turned TO Iluvatar rather than AWAY from him.

Of Sauron you say "they lie who say that He is a Tyrant wreathed in shadow." I do believe it was our beloved professor T. who wrote that of Sauron -- and I thought you despised those who altered his works and his vision.

You have said that Morgoth "hath made valleys, and Eru's slaves filled them; Melkor hath made mountains, and Eru hath cast them down", which is the very opposite of Tolkien's writing on that topic:

Finally, and I think perhaps this is a telling point, you ask "What would the world be without Melkor's Theme?" First of all, there was no "Melkor's Theme", only But more to the point, if there had been no Melkor, theme or no theme, then we would all go on living our lives in the REAL world. For Melkor is a fiction, a non-entity, words on a page (albeit words of genius) composed by a man we all revere, but who in the last analysis, deplored the cult status his words attained. Let us never forget that.

I have not yet made up my mind whether you have some method to your madness, or if you're just one of those folks who wander in to a forum or chat spoiling for a fight, pushing everyone's hot buttons, and watching their predictable knee-jerk reactions. Or perhaps you just quaff too many pints, or there's something "special" in those ciggies you smoke, or perhaps that fried chicken is just a wee bit past its freshness date. Nevertheless, I perceive that there is some valuable intelligence behind this belligerent facade, and I hope that it can spill forth here with less rancor and more gentleness, less veiled vagueries and more directness.

I'm off to bed. I bid you and all my readers a good night.

Responses like that make it all worth it. By Jove man don't you think I know how crazy these Tolkien fans are? For days I have lived in fear thinking that a truckload of them might suddenly appear, tires squeeling in some alley behind the market on my way home . . ."We got you now, don't we!"

But really- do you think I am just fumbling around here with no strategy?
Can I use conventional methods to convey inconventional ideas?
Can I go deeper into the depths without sacrificing myself, for no man can hold his breath that long, and surely I must fail, not at reaching the depths, but only by knowing that I have not enough to get back to the surface.

I disagree with you at two points:

[and since my computer skills are nil I can't remeber what you said and I'm afraid to lose my text so far...

"Eru foresaw and incorporated . . . .and eventually . . .

No. Do Not make excuses for Eru based on secret imagined faults which are not really his, but your own unvoiced or unrecognized limitations.

Eru was not inept and yet fortunately was able to some how in the end eventually make everything all right and use Melkors evil to defeat him. You still cannot fully accept the fact, as revealed, that the whole scope of the music was with Eru from the beginning and even the end, though we are at it's beginning, is within Eru AT PRESENT. According to your reasoning their is an unknown varible in the equation. Melkor, though not as great as Eru, and Eru, not entirely omnipotent, and the conflict between, whereby Eru proves by the end that he is master.

Wrong wrong wrong. Eru does not struggle to prove that he is master somehow by the end, but declares and reveals openly that he is the ultimate souce of all in the beginning. Eru Takes responsibility for evil, that is his greatness, do not rob him of it because you canot accept this or that faced with his glory, you connot fathom, so you humanize him by giving him a slight dose of human frailty, to make him understandable. The fault is not in him, but in you. Accept this.
Want to get serious?
The Hebrew God does not take responsibility for creating evil. He demands that you must take responsibility for evil, or, as seems to be the case, that his Own Son must be tortured and murdered at his own people's request.
By God man that doesn't make me feel saved. It makes me feel wretched.
Tolkien's mythology makes me feel saved. Am I mad?
If Tolkiens mythology is not real then neither is Christ or Moses or any of that. You cannot have your Tolkien and eat it too.
And Tolkiens work is far more moral and complete and plausible and holy than anything found in what is called the Bible.
Do not tell me that Arda is not real or never was. I can't prove it. But I have faith.
I want to continue this. I'll met you again later. Sleep tight preciousss!

What's the matter tenimer? can't sleep wondering what I'll say next?

I rush forward in blitzkrieg attack and, being engrossed in my task, make no considerations of empathy.
Therefore I was shocked to see that The Might and Hookbill the Goomba (sp) were 18 and 20, respectively.
I was strangely and profoundly moved.
While I take back nothing, not a word, I want to say that you guys should not let a word I say bring you down. I am
how shall I put it?
very impressed with your insight, thoughtfulness and level of maturity.
The what I've been told is dog latin inscription ( can I say that? Should I look it up? I keep a dictionary right here) as my secondary signiture is latin, a living langauge, which means, "Don't let the bastards grind you down".
Now you men think carefully about all that I have said, and look in the books, and Idaresay, seek for themes within our own history that fit within analogous perception, but only and I say only! ONLY! after you aquire knowledge. And not the disgusting Melkorian knowledge you find on discovery, but true knowledge that you can only get by special order catalogues and sometimes once in a while from a inter library loan.
And use a dictionary. Never read passed a word you do not know. If you do you are a fool and unworthy. Look it up. LOOK IT UP AGAIN. look it up and write the definition down. Look it up five times if the word doesn't sound like the meaning, as is often the case, and so, hard to memorize.
You both have the talentgift of writing and insight. Make sure you get to be experts with the thesaurus. With a thesaurus you conquer, without you fail. The best in the world know this but they will never tell you.
And Hookbill, I know why you call yourself that. My oldest best closest friend, my brother, who is dead because of my carelessness, had a really big nose too.
Most girls didn't like him, and they mostly didn't like anyone at all, but by God, and you'll see, some girls do.

[Thenamir]

By the heavens, Neithan, the regulars and bystanders who post on this site are some of the finest, most knowledgeable Tolkien fans on the Net, and for you to come in here as a rank (in every sense of the word) newcomer and talk down to us as you have been doing is intolerable. If you have something to say, say it and let's discuss it, but don't pretend to have some "secret insights" and patronize our supposed ignorance by hints and vagueness.

You're going to have to prove your bona fides here with much more than bluster before you can get away with that.

And by the way, your sig should read Illegitimi non carborundum. For one who claims that Latin is a living language, you sure don't treat it like one.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar

And Hookbill, I know why you call yourself that.

Ah! You're a fan of the Super Mario games are you?

[The Might]

By the by, when I first saw your name I looked it up on Wikipedia since it sounded strange, and yet familiar.

"Neithan, I'm unsure at this point whether you are a troll, a madman, or a thinker (of sorts)"...I seem to feel the same

Can duplicate accounts actually be started without anyone noticing here, because, if yes, there is a more likely possibility...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

If so, that's quite fabulous, as Men were created to respond to and to resist Melkor's themes.

Both races were created in the third theme:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale, Silmarillion

For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

That no Ainu had a part in their making is reinforced in the letters too (such as #200). I would have problems with picturing the Eruhini as a generated response by Melkor; Tolkien holds that their intrusion is the chief one; moreover:

Originally Posted by idem

And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty.

which implies that the Children existed in design before the themes.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

But this is Eru, and we cannot possibly hope to know Tolkien's own relationship with God and if he saw God as the source of all in the Real World, including Darkness, but if Eru is his representation of his own God then he may well have done.

I presume he does; the closest he comes to confessing this, that I know:

=Letter #153]I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them. That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today.

this theme of respect of Free Will by the Creator is also mentioned previously, in regards to the literary works:

Originally Posted by idem

Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view.

Morality implies free will, which implies possibility of evil - even at grand scales, such as that of angels, with all their terrible effects.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by The 1000th Reader

Yeah, they did.

Hmmm... care to elaborate? I agree with Lal here: nothing existed so no one could be aware of being happy. Though we could speculate if Ilúvatar and Ainur were happy or aware of it...

Originally Posted by The Might

Can duplicate accounts actually be started without anyone noticing here, because, if yes, there is a more likely possibility...

I think they can be made - why couldn't they? If this is some regular downer's joke, I think it's a very bad one.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

You do realize that everyone was happy and good even before Morgoth did his crap, right?

Originally Posted by davem

But did they realise they were good & happy? Did they realise anything at all?

The ainur used their free will to compose their music, so they must have had conscioussness. That they were good before Melkor's discording music is an fundamental idea in the Legendarium. I don't know of any 'evidence' concerning the level of their happiness, but even in this 50/50 situation, I believe it is safe to speculate they were doing quite alright. Ainulindale speaks of them experiencing amazement, harmony, communion, awe, even if only in relation to the music.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

The ainur used their free will to compose their music, so they must have had conscioussness. That they were good before Melkor's discording music is an fundamental idea in the Legendarium. I don't know of any 'evidence' concerning the level of their happiness, but even in this 50/50 situation, I believe it is safe to speculate they were doing quite alright. Ainulindale speaks of them experiencing amazement, harmony, communion, awe, even if only in relation to the music.

No. They were innocent befoe Melkor's discord - which is not the same thing at all. They could not have been 'good' because a) to be good is a moral choice, not a default position & b) they couldn't have known what 'good' actually was, since no alternative position existed. they didn't know they were happy because they had no experience of unhappiness. They didn't know what harmony amazement or communion was either, never having known disharmony, bordom or isolation. In short they didn't actually know much of anything till Melkor intervened & made them aware of other options.

Originally Posted by Raynor

The ainur used their free will to compose their music, so they must have had conscioussness. That they were good before Melkor's discording music is an fundamental idea in the Legendarium. I don't know of any 'evidence' concerning the level of their happiness, but even in this 50/50 situation, I believe it is safe to speculate they were doing quite alright. Ainulindale speaks of them experiencing amazement, harmony, communion, awe, even if only in relation to the music.

For nothing is evil in the beginning, even Sauron was not so.

Originally Posted by The Might

By the by, when I first saw your name I looked it up on Wikipedia since it sounded strange, and yet familiar.

"Neithan, I'm unsure at this point whether you are a troll, a madman, or a thinker (of sorts)"...I seem to feel the same

Can duplicate accounts actually be started without anyone noticing here, because, if yes, there is a more likely possibility...

Yes, go on, what are you saying?

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Ah! You're a fan of the Super Mario games are you?

Doo doot do doot, do do doot do doot........

[The 1,000 Reader]

Dude, give it up. Tolkien himself said Morgoth was an evil, selfish thing and that Sauron was just a lesser creature than that.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

You do realize that everyone was happy and good even before Morgoth did his crap, right?

But did they realise they were good & happy? Did they realise anything at all?

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by davem

But did they realise they were good & happy? Did they realise anything at all?

Yeah, they did.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

But did they realise they were good & happy? Did they realise anything at all?

Well, nobody even existed prior to Melkor's work apart from the Ainur. The Children were simply thoughts in Eru's mind, and from the way the Sil is worded, it seems maybe only Elves existed, and that Eru may have created Men as a response to Melkor:

Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Iluvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.
Then Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then again Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity.

Bold one - Elves
Bold two - Men - made in response to Melkor?

If so, that's quite fabulous, as Men were created to respond to and to resist Melkor's themes.

Anyway, to draw out some sense, I've argued before that using the text strictly, Darkness (note, not 'evil', but 'Darkness') must stem from Eru ultimately. From the start he is called the All Father and he is Omnipotent, and the very nature of that means that he creates everything, or causes every possibility.

Eru creates the Ainur from his own thought:

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Illuvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made

Melkor then, from what he has been given by Eru, which must include the potential to self-realise and imagine, makes up his own themes, different from the tune Eru has asked them to sing:

But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.

And then the Killer Quote from Eru, where he tells Melkor that although he may wish to make up his own theme and may believe he is being a true rebel, those thughts and ideas of Darkness all have their source in Eru:

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful which he himself hath not imagined.'

And what's more, because Everything stems from Eru, even if he who reveres Darkness thinks he is doing something different, heis not because Eru planted that there too, along with the fluffy stuff. And the Darkness only serves to make the Light that much brighter.

A lot of readers might not like that as they have the notion that Eru was all 'goodness' in our terms, yet this is at odds with an Omnipotent Eru who states he is the source of everything. This might make some uncomfortable as they believe their God is all 'good' - and I admit I too would be uncomfortable with this perception of God as someone who can cause things I see as quite dark. To me, there is no point in having a God if he is not all sweetness and light in contrast to the evil that people inflict on one another - why believe in a deity that can hurt you for no fathomable reason?

But this is Eru, and we cannot possibly hope to know Tolkien's own relationship with God and if he saw God as the source of all in the Real World, including Darkness, but if Eru is his representation of his own God then he may well have done. It's a common enough belief, especially in Catholicism, that everything stems from God, even the 'bad' things ('bad' because we see them as bad, but does God? Does he abhor war? Does he control tornadoes? Or is this all in his plan?) - it's simply his mysterious way; just take a look at The Book of Job to see an unfathomable God exercising his Omnipotence. By the by, this is assuming Eru is a representation of what Tolkien saw in God - it may well not be at all!

But we will never know. All we have to work on is what Eru is like in the text and in the Sil he creates All, including the potential for Darkness, and just as say Yavanna makes strawberries with her potential, Melkor makes cold temperatures with his. Eru gives them that potential and asks them to sing for him, and not all sing what he wanted them to sing because he also gives them the freedom to do as they will with the potential he has bestowed on them from his own thought.

Yet at the end of it all, even though Melkor does choose to use his potential in that way - it only serves to further glorify Eru, thus proving that in Arda, Eru has the Last Laugh.

And that's way, way more than I wanted to write...