'Pre-baptised'

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

It is in north-east Iceland, and pretty it is too.

Verily it is very pretty, but I'm not sure its as pretty in reality as it was 'mysterious' when it was just a name in my head, like Cuivienen....

That's the thing about strange names - Ljosa Water, Cuivienen, the Lonely Mountain, Smaug the Magnificent - every name implies a story - what does 'Ljosa' mean? Why is the mountain 'lonely'? But sometimes the mystery is more attractive than the solution....

[The Might]

Guess good old Romanian fairy stories might have pre-baptised me for Tolkien's work, and perhaps other myths and legends from other cultures.
But The Hobbit probably was the first book of its kind that I read.

[Lalaith]

It means lake of light - hope that restores some of the mystery, Davem...
...and I've found a much more mysterious picture for you, too....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hkvam/128213508/

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

It means lake of light - hope that restores some of the mystery, Davem...
...and I've found a much more mysterious picture for you, too....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hkvam/128213508/

It looks wonderful, & I'd like to go there. Mind you, I've always wanted to visit Iceland (though I might be disappointed when I got there, because I have this 'fantasy' Iceland in my mind). I wonder why its called lake of light?

I spent an hour last night googling away (they can't touch you for it, missus!) & found a couple of pics of the same place, Stetind in Northern Norway. First is a photo:http://earth.boisestate.edu/home/cjn...s/stetind2.jpg
Second is a painting of the same place http://www.artsmia.org/mirror-of-nat...rt_cat=8&lng=2.

I think looking at the first one would make you want to visit Norway. Looking at the second would perhaps make you want to visit Middle-earth - if that makes sense. The first image isn't as 'magical' as the second, because while the first shows a beautiful place, its a place you can get on a plane & visit, while the second image has a power, a terrifying beauty, which makes you catch your breath - the mountain seems not to belong in the world of the foreground of the picture, with its gently rolling waves lapping against the rocks. Its as if the fog had parted & revealed another reality, bigger, more mythic. I think that's what happened to me, all those years back - suddenly, for a moment, in a sketch show of all things, the fog parted & I glimpsed something much bigger, something which I had always, on some level, known was there.

[Lalaith]

The first link, the photo, looks beautiful...just like the Lonely Mountain. The second, Middle-earth one, won't open.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

The first link, the photo, looks beautiful...just like the Lonely Mountain. The second, Middle-earth one, won't open.

I know - site is slow. Try this - right at bottom of page http://homepage.mac.com/federoncik/f...tidelmale.html

[Lalaith]

Fabulous...yet quite scary.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

Guess good old Romanian fairy stories might have pre-baptised me for Tolkien's work, and perhaps other myths and legends from other cultures.
But The Hobbit probably was the first book of its kind that I read.

Seconded (only remove the word "Romanian"). But actually, I was pre-baptised the most very closely before reading the Hobbit, it was about year and a half before it, if I remember correctly. These were not books, however, but roleplaying games. Funny enough, I was about 7 or 8 years old at that point. I didn't encounter fantasy literature in any form before that, and on summer holiday, my cousin persuaded us (me, his younger brother and his sister - about 11-15 years old they were at that time, I think - and our parents ) to play a roleplaying game called "Dračí doupě"*. I was fascinated by the elves, orcs and all that stuff... and also, in the game there were hobbits. Not just "halflings" as they are in all other fantasy books and games, but "hobbits". (it would interest me if Tolkien has a trademark on this word, possibly this is why the word "hobbit" does not actually appear anywhere? Also, the out-of-ME halflings appear often quite different from the "true" hobbits. Bleagh. But anyway, in Czech the word is spelled only with one "B", so probably no trademarks applied? ) Uh... what was I saying? Yes, hobbits. You must agree that it is not such a normal word, is it? And so, do you think that I'd overlook a book named "The Hobbit"? Of course not. But it was still a long time after that when I first read the Hobbit, and also I didn't know yet about any "Lord of the Rings" at that moment.

This happened one year later. Next summer after the event described above, I got a Polish board game "Bitwa na Polach Pelennoru" (not necessary to translate, I think). Merely an A3-size hex paper, with seven walls, one field labelled "Citadel", and on the corners of the map three arrows labeled "to Rohan", "to Mines Morgul" and "to Pelangir" (the authors were nuts). But my cousins, when seeing it, swarmed (there were two of them, but the word describes pretty well what they did) around the board and with cries "Pelargir! Mines Morgul!" (well, they had better in spelling than the authors) started to talk about some "Lord of the Rings" I never heard of. It was later then I learned it was some sort of a book (my grandmother, who was working in a library, had the opinion that it's a three-volume book, where the first was named "Lord of the Rings" and the second "Lord of the Tower". How would she name the last one, I don't know. Possibly "Lord of the King"). I didn't do anything about it, though. Until later that year, in autumn, my older cousin (the very same one who forced us to play that RPG) got Iron Crown Enterprises' "Lord of the Rings roleplaying game" as birthday pressent... uh, present. It was in a lovely red box with Angus McBride's picture of Éowyn and the Lord of the Nazgul. I had to have it. So I murdered Deal... oh, no, no, that was another story. My parents just came with that wonderful idea of giving me the LotR roleplaying game as a Christmas present. (Warning: plot details follow) There was a story of some folks from Bree going after a dangerous troll who wandered too close to Bree. But the authors did a wonderful job of describing Tolkien's world and I totally fell in love with it.

So here you go. I think this is what you might call "pre-baptised" in the very sense of the word. I was pre-baptised by the same water, by Tolkien, though it was actually a "fake water" not written by Tolkien. My first reading about ME was not written by Tolkien. Quite unusual, uh? Hope this does not make me a heretic. Well, I think the point is that I read the Hobbit and LotR after that, even if it was not the first.

*A cheaper, less sophisticated Czech version of "Dungeons and Dragons" (even the name means more or less the same). It was shortly after Velvet revolution when some guys learned about D&D in the West and then they came back with an idea of providing our country with something like that - the market wasn't so connected still at that time, so D&D didn't appear here. They made quite a good job with it, and it became No.1 in the Czech RPGing world. Well, not that any RPGing world existed here before. Possibly, if there wasn't a delay with them making 3rd edition of the rules, Dungeons&Dragons would stand no chance on Czech market. Dračí doupě was not a mere clone, actually it was pretty inventive, though less sophisticated (and maybe this was actually why it was so popular), it contained some ideas the D&D makers didn't think of.

Originally Posted by davem

Verily it is very pretty, but I'm not sure its as pretty in reality as it was 'mysterious' when it was just a name in my head, like Cuivienen....

That's the thing about strange names - Ljosa Water, Cuivienen, the Lonely Mountain, Smaug the Magnificent - every name implies a story - what does 'Ljosa' mean? Why is the mountain 'lonely'? But sometimes the mystery is more attractive than the solution....

C.S.Lewis "On Stories" agrees:

"To be stories at all they must be series of events: but it must be understood that this series—the plot, as we call it—is only really a net whereby to catch something else. The real theme may be, and perhaps usually is, something that has no sequence in it, something other than a process and much more like a state or quality. Giantship, otherness, the desolation of space, are examples that have crossed our path [earlier in the essay]. The titles of some stories illustrate the point very well. The Well at the World's End—can a man write a story to that title? Can he find a series of events following one another in time which will really catch and fix and bring home to us all that we grasp at on merely hearing the six words? Can a man write a story on Atlantis—or is it better to leave the word to work on its own? And I must confess that the net very seldom does succeed in catching the bird."

(For me fairy stories, Howard Pyle, CSL's Narnia and space trilogy, George MacDonald, the Old Testament, retellings of Greek mythology, the Iliad and Odyssey, SciFi including early Heinlein and Poul Anderson, were pre-baptisms for Middle Earth or verce visa. And inoculations against certain other things.)

--Rulavi

[davem]

Originally Posted by Rulavi

The Well at the World's End—can a man write a story to that title? Can he find a series of events following one another in time which will really catch and fix and bring home to us all that we grasp at on merely hearing the six words? Can a man write a story on Atlantis—or is it better to leave the word to work on its own? And I must confess that the net very seldom does succeed in catching the bird."

You know, I find the same thing with the cover paintings on fantasy novels - so beautiful, mysterious & evocative...yet when you read the synopsis on the back, or skim the pages, its the usual stuff about 'Dark Lords, hapless heroes, magical talismans' & such. If only the story lived up to the cover.....

(And to be honest, I don't suppose Erik's story would have lived up to that wonderful set up.....

Originally Posted by davem

You know, I find the same thing with the cover paintings on fantasy novels - so beautiful, mysterious & evocative...yet when you read the synopsis on the back, or skim the pages, its the usual stuff about 'Dark Lords, hapless heroes, magical talismans' & such. If only the story lived up to the cover.....

(And to be honest, I don't suppose Erik's story would have lived up to that wonderful set up.....

We must have read different fantasy novels . I usually have had the opposite experience: if there's a book that speaks to me, it's despite the cover (and any other illustrations) not because of it. And often in such cases it's the content that's "beautiful, mysterious & evocative"; the pictures fail because they are too (and wrongly) specific. Movies similarly, natch, though it's somewhat easier for a movie: it doesn't need to capture it in a single scene and can take longer to get you used to their vision. Two exceptions: many of Pauline Baynes' illustrations for Narnia seemed just right, and the Shire in the LOTR movies was immediately, and continues to be, very satisfying to me.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Actually, when I was nine or so, we went to our Christmas dinner, and my cool-but-wierd D&D-playing uncle (who incidentally, also formed his own grunge rock band, went to Poland for a couple of years, and is just generally interesting...) bought along a LOTR board game.

It kinda ticked me off because everyone else knew the characters and I had only read the Hobbit, wondering why in the world they were trying to destroy the Ring, and who the hell Frodo was. And that spurred me a bit to read about Frodo as all four of my uncles told me a watered-down version of the story.

I started LOTR when I was nine, and only finished it a year later. (Phew!) And of course many years later NOW I know a heap more about Middle-Earth than them. I can still brag about how I know what 'Gondolin' means in three different languages... hehehehe...

Originally Posted by Rulavi

We must have read different fantasy novels . I usually have had the opposite experience: if there's a book that speaks to me, it's despite the cover (and any other illustrations) not because of it. And often in such cases it's the content that's "beautiful, mysterious & evocative"; the pictures fail because they are too (and wrongly) specific. Movies similarly, natch, though it's somewhat easier for a movie: it doesn't need to capture it in a single scene and can take longer to get you used to their vision. Two exceptions: many of Pauline Baynes' illustrations for Narnia seemed just right, and the Shire in the LOTR movies was immediately, and continues to be, very satisfying to me.

Another case I should have mentioned: Howard Pyle, where the pictures are at least as good as the text.

[davem]

Can't help thinking of Simone d'Ardenne's reminiscence, where she said to Tolkien: `You broke the veil, didn't you, and passed through?' and she adds that he `readily admitted' having done so."

It seems she was referring to language, but Tolkien may have understood her question differently. 'Breaking the veil' seems like an apt title for the painting I linked to. Tolkien, one could say, 'broke the veil' & showed us what lies beyond - or at least gave us a glimpse of it. There is an awesome realm beyond, & our own smallness is revealed to us by what we are shown. Yet, as Lewis states, it is not a place that is forever denied to us - we are given that glimpse because whatever it is that lies beyond is somewhere we have a right to be - if I understand him. The original glimpse is brief - we may even miss it, but if we are open to what we see the next glimpse may be longer & clearer.

Managed to find a better pic of the painting ('Breaking the Veil' as I shall call it from now on) Hope it works

Originally Posted by davem

'Breaking the veil' seems like an apt title for the painting I linked to. Tolkien, one could say, 'broke the veil' & showed us what lies beyond - or at least gave us a glimpse of it. There is an awesome realm beyond, & our own smallness is revealed to us by what we are shown. Yet, as Lewis states, it is not a place that is forever denied to us - we are given that glimpse because whatever it is that lies beyond is somewhere we have a right to be - if I understand him. The original glimpse is brief - we may even miss it, but if we are open to what we see the next glimpse may be longer & clearer.

Managed to find a better pic of the painting ('Breaking the Veil' as I shall call it from now on) Hope it works

Another Lewis tie-in: the whole story of his Pilgrim's Regress centers on a boy drawn by ineffable longing to a beautiful Island that he glimpses far in the West. He abandons his native Puritania, with the frowning Landlord's Castle overlooking it from across the river to the east, and travels westward in search of the Island. When he finally stands on the far sea-shore and can see the Island clearly across the waters, he realizes it is the Landlord's Castle seen from the other side, and he travels back around the world to cross the river to get there. A rather Chestertonian conceit grafted onto something like the Breaking-The-Veil vision. (With a lot of undoubtedly clever but often esoteric and obscure allegory and satire grafted onto that. Quite unlike Lewis' other writings.)

(Lewis & Tolkien, I'm pretty sure, would say not that we have a right to be there, but that through the Mercy we may be given that right.)

Originally Posted by davem

Can't help thinking of Simone d'Ardenne's reminiscence, where she said to Tolkien: `You broke the veil, didn't you, and passed through?' and she adds that he `readily admitted' having done so."

It seems she was referring to language, but Tolkien may have understood her question differently. 'Breaking the veil' seems like an apt title for the painting I linked to. Tolkien, one could say, 'broke the veil' & showed us what lies beyond - or at least gave us a glimpse of it.

If you think about it, "breaking" the veil is an odd collocation of words, a kind of mixing of metaphors. "Breaking through the veil" is better, perhaps? But even there you expect more of a solid barrier than a yielding one. Frodo didn't "break through" Shelob's webs, but had to cut his way through. "Parting", or if violence or impatience is needed, "tearing" or "rending" the veil?

The picture, to me, is more of a parting of the veil/clouds: the viewer is, in that sense, passive (though in another sense gloriously participative). If any rending is going on, it is someone else who is doing it.

Actually, you'd already said it that way, Davem:

Suddenly the mist parts, just for a moment, & you see that, & then its gone again. Of course, you'd be terrified, yet it would be like seeing a glimpse of another reality. The world would suddenly seem much bigger & much stranger than you had ever thought. And however terrifying the experience had been I suspect your desire to know more would have been stronger.