soldiers available in ME

[The Might]

600.000 Dwarves were living there?

All this speculation is making me confused

[Kuruharan]

Thge Iron Hills was the most capable country in the North to stand in the way of Sauron at the time of the Hobbit, so I calculated that if the 500 that were at the Battle of Five Armies was just around five-ten percent of Dain's army then it would be around 5-10,000. So in a sense it is logical number.

Just because it was "most" capable doesn't equal "very" capable.

I am also a little puzzled by that remark by Gandalf because it ignores the Woodland Realm which was also in the area and had more soldiers at the Battle of Five Armies, but perhaps they would have been taken up by Dol Guldur, but that is a discussion for another time.

I have a problem with the arbitrary decision that the 500 dwarves was just 5-10% of Dain's army. Why do you think that? I think Dain would have brought every dwarf he could spare because of the critical nature of the enterprise. While I agree that perhaps Dain did not bring along every dwarf of his who could bear arms, I think he would have brought the vast majority of them.

To the best of my understanding the Iron Hills had never been much more than an outpost. If it had been more than that, why wouldn't the Kings of Durin's Folk have relocated there after the Lonely Mountain fell? I think Dain brought few dwarves because he had few to bring.

Also, the dwarves were never a numerous people when compared to Men and orcs, especially during this time of their decline.

I agree that the number of dwarves in the Iron Hills should be lower than those at the Lonely Mountain by the time of the war of the ring.
Also I'm not sure if Lindon should have that big of an army. I was always under the impression that Lindon was more like Rivendell and couldn't field a substantial army like Mirkwood or Lorien

[ninja91]

600,000 dwarves?!?!?! Nonsense. A force like that could almost storm through Mordor itself. If the above calculations are correct, that would be twice as many as all the baddies in Mordor. 600,000 dwarves... I'm sorry, but no way.

Also, I would guess that there are around 500 to 1500 elves in Rivendell. Any stronghold like that would be somewhat fortified, because at one point they expected Sauron to attack Rhudaur, and Rivendell in particular.

It is also hard to say how many were in Umbar. Seeing as how they were known for their Corsairs and not their foot soldiers, that number is impossible to find.

[goldfinger]

Originally Posted by ninja91

600,000 dwarves?!?!?! Nonsense. A force like that could almost storm through Mordor itself. If the above calculations are correct, that would be twice as many as all the baddies in Mordor. 600,000 dwarves... I'm sorry, but no way.

Also, I would guess that there are around 500 to 1500 elves in Rivendell. Any stronghold like that would be somewhat fortified, because at one point they expected Sauron to attack Rhudaur, and Rivendell in particular.

It is also hard to say how many were in Umbar. Seeing as how they were known for their Corsairs and not their foot soldiers, that number is impossible to find.

You miss interpreted what I said. I meant the Dwarven Population not there military force.

[ninja91]

Originally Posted by goldfinger

You miss interpreted what I said. I meant the Dwarven Population not there military force.

Even at that, there is no way there are that many dwarves still dwelling in the north. Out of those 600,000 there would have to be probably around 100,000 to 150,000 or more able fighters, and even that is still outrageous.

[Kuruharan]

I just came across a rather interesting note in "The Making of Appendix A."

It says...

...and in the Battle before the Gate of Moria ten thousand orcs were slain.

Admittedly, this tidbit of information was taken out before it saw the light of day, but I think it can give some insight into what Tolkien was thinking.

A few provisional observations can be gleaned from this.

1) The loss of 10,000 orcs was enough to cripple the orcs of the Misty Mountains for something like a century.

2) Part of this crippling was due to many of the survivors of Azanulbizar fleeing southward to trouble Rohan and Gondor, with serious trouble there starting only 2 years later. This argues that substantial numbers of orcs managed to escape from the battle.

3) The dwarves were outnumbered at the battle of Azanulbizar. This means the total number of Longbeards (assuming that virtually all male dwarves fought) was probably less than 10,000. It must also be remembered that some other Houses sent forces, although we don't know if all the Houses sent forces or how many soldiers they would have sent. The forces sent by the other Houses were described as "great" and Gandalf speaks of "all the dwarves from the four corners of the earth" which implies a pretty all-out effort. When this is considered the number of Longbeards (or for that matter, any other kind of dwarf) plummets considerably. It must also be remembered that only half the dwarf-host made it out of battle alive.

4) On the other hand, if one assumes that perhaps a similar proportion of orcs made it out, which in my view is plausible given the orcish tendency to bolt at the first sign of real trouble and the difficulties that dwarves would have in pursuit not having cavalry, that would mean that the orcish army at Azanulbizar was around 20,000. This would probably mean that the total for the dwarf-host was possibly a few thousand above 10,000 as massively outnumbered armies tend not to succeed in open field battle even if they are more courageous and better armed, particularly if they are fighting from a serious tactical disadvantage.