Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Isn't Gandalf the White a supernatural creature of a high order, & the Witch King just a corrupted sorcerer? In this situation, has there been any example of when a supernatural creature has lost in battle in Middle Earth? For the Witch King to stand a chance, he would need Sauron to have the Ring, which would enhance his own power enormously. Being given an added demonic force out of the blue by Sauron does not make sense, as Sauron is still much weaker than ever before, & so therefore are the Nazgul.

It is a fault by Tolkein, who realised that if Sauron couldn't be used, & the Witch King was not going to trouble Gandalf the White, then a quick fix of increasing the power of the Witch King was the answer. This wasn't going to be the answer, & Gandalf had already defeated the greatest foe after the Darklord in Moria in a weaker status of his Order.

Perhaps sending another foe out of Mordor, like the Mouth of Sauron, alongside the Witch King would have been a greater task for Gandalf to face.

[Raynor]

In this situation, has there been any example of when a supernatural creature has lost in battle in Middle Earth?

Fram killed Scatha the dragon, Glorfindel - a balrog, Echtelion- Gothmog lord of the balrogs, Bard - Smaug, Turin - Glaurung.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Fram killed Scatha the dragon, Glorfindel - a balrog, Echtelion- Gothmog lord of the balrogs, Bard - Smaug, Turin - Glaurung.

Whether dragons possess any elevated form of fea (such as the ealar who are known as Balrogs) is debatable. Glorfindel and Ecthelion were virtually demigods. Glorfindel is said to be nearly as mighty even as some Maiar; Ecthelion must also have been.

The Peoples of Middle Earth, XIII, Last Writings, Glorfindel essay 2:

After his purging of any guilt that he had incurred in the rebellion, he was released from Mandos, and Manwe restored him.... For long years he remained in Valinor...in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate...his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.

Admittedly, this reflects the power of Glorfindel post-reincarnation, but he was evidently near to the power of an incarnated Maia, as those Balrogs who were slain must have been, even before his sacrifice. (Note: after his reincarnation he was nearly equal with Maiar in their natural incorporeal state.)

[Raynor]

There is a letter that indicates that the Witch-King was in some way enhanced for The Return of the King, but it's not clear whether Tolkien means narratively enhanced, or literally souped-up by Sauron.

To me, the later seems to be case

Originally Posted by Letter #210

The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

Glorfindel and Ecthelion were virtually demigods.

As you have stated yourself, Glorfindel enhanced status appears after his death, as all reincarnated elves are, IIRC. That passage you quoted is irrelevant for Glorfindel at the time of his battle; the same goes for Echtelion. In a "mirror" argument, if he was greatly enhanced afterwards, his initial power, compared to his new one, is greatly reduced.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

To me, the later seems to be case
As you have stated yourself, Glorfindel enhanced status appears after his death, as all reincarnated elves are, IIRC. That passage you quoted is irrelevant for Glorfindel at the time of his battle; the same goes for Echtelion. In a "mirror" argument, if he was greatly enhanced afterwards, his initial power, compared to his new one, is greatly reduced.

And yet both were capable of defeating (presumably incarnate) Balrogs before their enhancement. Neither of them were typical Elves, both being considered among the mightiest warriors in Gondolin. I'll grant that they can be considered examples of "transcendence" of the limitations of their spiritual station in M-E, but they were by no means normal even prior to their near-apotheosis.

Additionally, Maiar are weaker in an incarnate state than in their natural form. I hinted at this above, but it's worth being specific about. Balrogs that were defeated by Incarnates can be assumed to be incarnated (death being otherwise impossible) and thus weaker than those primeval Spirits of Fire who first joined Melkor.

[Raynor]

I would also mention that the body of the elves, while in Arda is being weakened by the marring of Melkor and consumed by the fire of their spirit. I wonder if the diminishing of the balrog's power might have been balanced to an extent by Melkor.

I am also curious if by "they were by no means normal even prior to their near-apotheosis" you mean that they are enhanced by the light of Valinor.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I would also mention that the body of the elves, while in Arda is being weakened by the marring of Melkor and consumed by the fire of their spirit. I wonder if the diminishing of the balrog's power might have been balanced to an extent by Melkor.

Corruption isn't a good thing even for baddies. It could be argued that corruption is what eventually bound Melkor, Sauron, and Balrogs to their material bodies, and weakened their spirits to the point that they could be rendered impotent by physical destruction.

That said, Morgoth's power at the time that he was responsible for the shaping of Middle-earth wasn't wholly corrupting; he originally loved light, and was nevertheless one of Eru's firstborn. Melkor corrupted Arda in many ways after it came into existence, but his connection to it was far deeper than that. He made his indelible imprint on Arda before it even became physical: in fact, before he ever committed any great evil. His part in the Music of the Ainur was, for all its contentiousness, still considered part of Eru's greater theme, its utter origin being claimed by him. Could the Music have included those crimes he later perpetrated?

Moreover, I'd say that at some point Melkor was severed from his fundamental connection to Arda. Arda was, at least for a time, "Morgoth's Ring": he and it were bound together because of his dominant hand in shaping it, and the result of the destruction of either would be the destruction of the other. Yet, in a late essay (within Myths Transformed, I believe), Melkor is said finally to have been executed as a mortal. If his connection to Arda was ultimately cut with no cataclysmic consequences for Arda, his corruption and diminution must have been driving him farther from that original vitality he had as Arda's counterpart. His later evil was thus unnatural, while the primeval theme of discord he wove into the music can still be considered natural; an observable aspect of nature, free from and above the qualification of "right" or "wrong", as Melkor himself was in his beginning.

Anyway, my point is that I don't think "Arda Marred" was a pool from which bad things received Melkor's lingering evil.

I am also curious if by "they were by no means normal even prior to their near-apotheosis" you mean that they are enhanced by the light of Valinor.

Actually, I'm not really prepared to speculate on what made Ecthelion and Glorfindel the mightiest of the Elves of Gondolin. Still, were they not extraordinary?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is a fault by Tolkein, who realised that if Sauron couldn't be used, & the Witch King was not going to trouble Gandalf the White, then a quick fix of increasing the power of the Witch King was the answer. This wasn't going to be the answer, & Gandalf had already defeated the greatest foe after the Darklord in Moria in a weaker status of his Order.

It wasn't a fault of Tolkien's, it was a fault of the filmmakers'. This idea that the Witch-King is suddenly beefed up enough to match Gandalf was not Tolkien's. The Witch-King never approaches Gandalf's level in the books. There is a letter that indicates that the Witch-King was in some way enhanced for The Return of the King, but it's not clear whether Tolkien means narratively enhanced, or literally souped-up by Sauron. The latter, even if it were true, would still not put the Witch-King at any level near Gandalf's latent potential. Indeed, how could it? Sauron and Gandalf were equals in their beginnings, so how could a weakened Sauron enhance his fundamentally mortal servant to a level beyond (or even equal to) one of Sauron's own peers? To what degree Gandalf's Istar limitations were adjusted is unclear, but even while under those constraints he was capable of defeating a Balrog without violating the rules. The Balrog was unquestionably mightier than the Witch-King in written Tolkien, though the movies' conception of him may be different. If there's incongruence here, it's Jackson & co.'s, not Tolkien's.

I have always believed it should have been a contest between Gandalf the White & Sauron. This would be logical in that the Nazgul had already been held off by Aragorn (& Gandalf in the Books), the Balrog had been destroyed by a weaker Gandalf, so an enhanced Gandalf needs an opponent worthy of being able to defeat him.

As far as the films are concerned, perhaps the Witch King wasn't as large or as menacing as he should have been, in comparison to the Balrog which I think was awesome. I would have ;iked to have seen a crackle of that luminous energy burst through the Witch King to give him more appeal. I never believed Gandalf was anxious of the Witch King, he was afraid of Gondor not being strong enough to hold off his army until Rohan arrived. The threat of the Witch King was the last thing he needed to contend with in this overwhelming situation - there was too much for him to do by himself without the aid of Rohan.

[alatar]

Always note that, however powerful or weak Gandalf may have been in regards to the Witch-King, he had the Achilles' heel of caring about others, even the slaves of Mordor. The WK, as he rides (not flies!) towards and into the Gate at Minas Tirith, heeded not the dead or dying, whether friend or foe. All that mattered to him was to do his Master's bidding, with hopefully the chance for a little fun on the way. Gandalf, though, could be swayed at the taking of a hostage, even if he were more powerful than the WK (note the words of the Mouth of Sauron at the Morannon. He didn't say anything about killing Frodo...). Plus there's always that command that Gandalf was given not to match force with force, and so he could not fight Sauron in the way that PJ may have liked.

By the by, though tangential to the movie WK-Gandalf question, I've enjoyed the recent discussion.

[Raynor]

Obloquy, I will try to answer your last post when we get a separate thread, so as not to hinder this one.

Just to niggle on some arguments I don't agree with completely

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Gandalf was certainly not on the same level as Sauron in the beginning.

I don't think we can say certainly (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by The Istari, Unfinished Tales

For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men.

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Gandalf would not have been grim on the possibility of a confrontation

There are several factors to be considered. One is that no one can be certain that the witch king will fight alone, esspecially since he is described as driving others forward. In prior consideration, facing him could imply facing other members of his host too. Gandalf was "hard put" when he faced the nazgul on Wheatertop, and he (barely probably) escaped at sunrise.

Another thing is another part your own argument in mirror. You mentioned all those mighty persons who were defeated by lesser ones. It only makes sense that Gandalf would be cautious of even lesser foes, having history in mind.

These are my my favourite qoutes from the book in which Tolkein makes his point on this subject strongly:-


'Ai! Ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! '

Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.

'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. `What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'


'An evil of the ancient world it seemed, such as I have never seen before," said Aragorn. 'It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'

'It was a Balrog of Morgoth," said Legolas; 'of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'

'Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams, I saw Durin's Bane,' said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes.


Gandalf the White — In the words of Aragorn, "You are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads."


The book certainly makes a strong case that the Balrog was the greater task in battle than the Witch-King, though note that these qoutes are taken fron the first two volumes only. Also, just as important, it was the Black Captain who escaped from the encounter at the gate as soon as Rohan arrived, showing that a fair one vs one with Gandalf was not on his mind! He would only attack with an unfair advantage with his army behind him - what a coward!

As far as Gandalf's anxiety with the Witch King, wasn't Gandalf already shaking when he learned that Frodo had gone to Cirith Ungol? The tension just got to him, knowing that Mordor was going to obliviate Gondor without urgent aid. He was not supported in the slightest by Denethor, nor was there a guarantee that Aragorn would complete his task in summoning the King of the Dead for aid. Rohan had not yet arrived to help hold off the storm. In this sort of situation even Morgoth would be anxious.

[obloquy]

There is far more evidence to support Gandalf and Sauron's equal stature than there is to the contrary. I won't go into it again here, but I'll provide some links for further research:

Here and here can be found the most important elements to the argument. Near the end of the first thread is a wonderful piece of research by gorthaur_cruel, but its date (1956) and incongruence with the bulk of Tolkien's writing render it all but useless, much like the Fall of Gondolin is for Balrog discussions.

Additionally, Sauron during the War of the Ring can be considered far weaker than he was in his original form, since he was not in possession of a large portion of his power (though he is said to be in "rapport" with it at all times), and he was also incarnate, having "died" several times already. Gandalf was, of course, limited similarly, but the point is that both were.

It's literally.

You sound pretty positive. Maybe you could share your iron-clad evidence for this assertion?

When placed in command of the armies, he was given "An added demonic force."

So Sauron doles out some extra "demonic force" to his servants from time to time? Why now? Why not before the Nazgul went to The Shire, and why didn't they all receive some? This isn't even Middle-earth vocabulary: "demonic force" is a reference to the impression a reader gets from the Witch-King, not something Sauron is capable of dispensing.

The Witch-King, even with all his buddies, would not challenge the power of ring-bearing Galadriel. Gandalf had a Ring of Power, too, and was even greater in innate power than Galadriel. The Witch-King had fled from Glorfindel (see Appendix A), and yet Glorfindel, even after his enhancement through reincarnation, is said to be almost an equal to the Maiar. How, please, could a mere Man (originally mighty, perhaps, but certainly not even one of the greatest of the Atani) who was hopelessly enslaved to Sauron approach this kind of spiritual power? The answer is that he could not, and I have never seen any shred of evidence to support the idea.

Edit: Great post, mansun!

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Additionally, Sauron during the War of the Ring can be considered far weaker than he was in his original form, since he was not in possession of a large portion of his power (though he is said to be in "rapport" with it at all times), and he was also incarnate, having "died" several times already. Gandalf was, of course, limited similarly, but the point is that both were.

That doesn't really say who was stronger. It just says that both weren't at the 100% they were at in the beginning.

Originally Posted by obloquy

You sound pretty positive. Maybe you could share your iron-clad evidence for this assertion?

It's right in the book dude. The quote was provided on the last page.

Originally Posted by obloquy

So Sauron doles out some extra "demonic force" to his servants from time to time? Why now?

Apparently, Sauron cared more of the war than his ring at that time.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Why not before the Nazgul went to The Shire, and why didn't they all receive some?

Likely because their strength would have gotten the attention of the elves or an Istari, who would rally up the people or something of that sort.

Originally Posted by obloquy

This isn't even Middle-earth vocabulary: "demonic force" is a reference to the impression a reader gets from the Witch-King, not something Sauron is capable of dispensing.

It's a literal force. The book even says that when Sauron appoints him as the leader of the host assaulting Minas Tirith that he's given an added demonic force, and he does appear more powerful than he was in earlier confrontations. It is not an impression like fear: it's specifically stated to be an added demonic force.

Originally Posted by obloquy

The Witch-King, even with all his buddies, would not challenge the power of ring-bearing Galadriel.

That's because Galadriel was very mighty (in the magical arts at the very least) and she had an entire realm of warrior elves at her disposal. Also, Dol Guldur, which was commanded by Khamul the Easterling, assaulted Lothlorien three times: the Nazgul did attempt to defeat her.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Gandalf had a Ring of Power, too, and was even greater in innate power than Galadriel. The Witch-King had fled from Glorfindel (see Appendix A), and yet Glorfindel, even after his enhancement through reincarnation, is said to be almost an equal to the Maiar. How, please, could a mere Man (originally mighty, perhaps, but certainly not even one of the greatest of the Atani) who was hopelessly enslaved to Sauron approach this kind of spiritual power?

The Witch-King was skilled with the magical arts, likely was a great warrior, destroyed Arnor, and in the siege of Minas Tirith was given additional power. Gandalf clearly was not passing the situation off as a minor detail or something casual, and as I've said before, being a Maia, while somewhat of an advantage, is not a clear-cut victory. The higher-ranked beings of Middle-Earth have lost countless times. Even if Gandalf was wise to those events, that does not mean that he was assured victory due to his origin.

Originally Posted by obloquy

The answer is that he could not, and I have never seen any shred of evidence to support the idea.

That is only your opinion in the end, and the scene in the book where Gandalf met the Witch-King at the gates of Minas Tirith was most definitely not a confrontation where one combatant was depicted with any sort of strength over the other. Indeed, if the Professor gave one of the two any sort of visible edge, the whole point of the scene would be void. The scene was not to tell us that Gandalf would be a safety-blanket or that the Witch-King was about to whup him to the moon: it was to build tension and have us be unsure of who'd win.

I grow tired of debating this subject, so unless you want to press the matter on, I'll stay away from this discussion.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by obloquy

It wasn't a fault of Tolkien's, it was a fault of the filmmakers'. This idea that the Witch-King is suddenly beefed up enough to match Gandalf was not Tolkien's. he Witch-King never approaches Gandalf's level in the books.

Actually, Gandalf was nervous about confronting the Witch-King, as evidenced in the discussion with Denethor. Gandalf was grim on the matter, and did not answer with a direct yes or no. The strength the two had was not one-sided in favor of another. If Gandalf knew the Witch-King was no problem, he would not be grim and indecisive on the matter.

Originally Posted by obloquy

There is a letter that indicates that the Witch-King was in some way enhanced for The Return of the King, but it's not clear whether Tolkien means narratively enhanced, or literally souped-up by Sauron.

It's literally. When placed in command of the armies, he was given "An added demonic force."

Originally Posted by obloquy

Sauron and Gandalf were equals in their beginnings,

And where do you get this from? If you recall, Gandalf was actually afraid of going to Middle-Earth and facing Sauron. Since Sauron was already weakened yet Gandalf still was fearful, Gandalf was certainly not on the same level as Sauron in the beginning.

Originally Posted by obloquy

so how could a weakened Sauron enhance his fundamentally mortal servant to a level beyond (or even equal to) one of Sauron's own peers?

He obviously did, otherwise the Balrog-slaying Gandalf would not have been grim on the possibility of a confrontation. Besides, if Gandalf could have taken out the Witch-King in three seconds, the entire purpose of having their confrontation would be null and void.

Originally Posted by obloquy

To what degree Gandalf's Istar limitations were adjusted is unclear, but even while under those constraints he was capable of defeating a Balrog without violating the rules. The Balrog was unquestionably mightier than the Witch-King in written Tolkien, though the movies' conception of him may be different. If there's incongruence here, it's Jackson & co.'s, not Tolkien's.

We don't know that. As Gandalf the Grey, Gandalf killed a Balrog. As Gandalf the White, who was more powerful, Gandalf was uncertain of the victor in a bout between him and the Morgul Lord. There is a good chance that the added demonic force could have indeed elevated the Witch-King to a level where he would be a threat to Gandalf the White.

As for lesser beings defeating greater beings, that's strewn nearly everywhere in Tolkien's works. Huan beat Sauron, Elendil and Gil-Galad beat Sauron when he had the Ring, Luthien bested Morgoth, the numerous dragon slayings, dwarves killing Thingol, Morgoth eventually dying by the hand of Turin, Ungoliant defeating Morgoth, the Witch-King's defeat at the hands of Eowyn and Merry, Sam beating Shelob, and ultimately Frodo, Sam and Gollum finishing Sauron. Just because Gandalf's a Maia doesn't mean he's fine against anyone of lower rank.