LotR3-RotK-Seq24

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

The (in)famous bedroom scene......You won't be surprised to hear that I have no problems with this scene. I think PJ has said somewhere that his characters deserve this 'ending' - we've been with them for nigh on 11 hours now and they have been through a lot. Some people may see this as corny, but hey, come on - Frodo (and Sam) have saved Middle-earth - frodo's seen a great friend who he knew was dead come back to life - his cousins bound in and are overjoyed to see him - who wouldn't do exactly the same in merry or pippin's place?

Me and many other people I know that consider Merry and Pippin's behaviour weird, excessive and/or smarmy.

laughing and joking and comparing war wounds with Frodo now that the ME is 'free' and saved from Sauron? they are entitled to their 'immaturity' here - joy can overcome our maturity and turn us into kids now and then.

But the whole story arc for these two was that they 'grew.' We saw even Pip take responsibility and care for Merry. Now we have these two narcissists hogging Frodo. If you must bounce and hug Frodo so be it, but get it out of your system and give the others a chance (can you imagine eight persons on the bed doing the same thing? Hey, they beat Sauron, and so it's okay... ).

I cried like a baby when Aragorn and co bowed to the hobbits because of my joy - it doesn't make me 'less mature' - but I admit I did cover my face in the cinema when I was balling my eyes out trying to be more adult LOL!

I well up as well, and I do not consider tears immature, but if you balled at every sappy commercial on TV or laughed/cried each time a cloud passed in front of the sun, I might consider that you have issues. My issue is that I had to suffer the diminuation of Gandalf as it moved the story along or whatever and yet I cannot have the bouncy beans take a chill pill as that's what they (the actors) I guess wanted to do.

It's amazing, throughout this trilogy, what PJ can get his actors to convey with just a look. This one surpases most of them. You can read SO much into this look - love, completion, and a sense of the two hobbits being 'equal' in stature - though Sam would never accept this of course.

Exactly. Do we really need Merry and Pippin to be so excessive in their joy (I'm suddenly thinking of excited dogs, but won't go there) when we have so much more said in a simple look?

I really don't give a monkey about whether none book readers thought the film was over or not. Too bad. Should have read the book first you phillistines!

Typically people want more for their money, yet here...I guess there should have been a warning not to exert oneself (getting up out of one's seat after a bucket of popcorn and Coke) until the credit rolled. What were these people trying to do - beat traffic?

My favourite part of the Trilogy. I still well up when I watch it now. Sacriligeous I know, but this works even better in the film as it does in the book where Aragorn kneels to Sam and Merry in the Field of Cormallen.

Agreed. It works without bouncing on a bed.

Very clever use of the pumpkin to show that these 4 little hobbits (well 2 of them not so small now!) who are 'amongst the Great' are just bog standard normal peopl in the eyes of the Hobbitons. It shows their great modesty and maturity that they don't go jumping up exclaiming to the crowds what they've done and how great they are. the look on their faces (again great direction from PJ) says it all.........

Couldn't think of how to work that point in, but it's clear to those that see that the Pumpkin of Incredible Size is more newsworthy than the four heroes of the age. I'm not surprised.

I was cried out at this moment from the last 15 minutes or so, so this doesn't have the impact the Book has on me every time I read it. There's a few chapters between the events of the last 15 mins in the book of course (scouring, saruman etc)

Seeing it is much more emotive than reading it. It's the looks, the tears, the music - it all gets you in that place where you keep your jar of loneliness and loss.

I'm not sure whether it works or not, not having Frodo crying as he gets ready to say goodbye to his friends for the last time.

My illiterate sister noted this and it bothered her. She thought that the reason that Frodo had to leave was that he was sick - couldn't 'feel' and so went to die somewhere in the West.

Finally, and this goes against my main stance for the past 17 months on these discussion boards, but I've got to start at some point(!) - I'll end with a couple of down points for now!

Now I've seen everything!

I was dissapointed that we had no extra scenes all the way from Gollum's attack on the slopes of Mount Doom to the end of the movie - REALLY dissapointed.

What else would you have liked to have seen in regards to PJ's story? A shot of Legolas and Gimli departing for their new adventures? A drunken Gimli snogging Galadriel?

And was also sad in both versions, that we don't have the follow on scenes for the rest of the fellowship - when I read these scenes in the tale of the years they still make me shed a tear.

All good things - even many bad things - eventually come to an end. Isn't it interesting that the life of the Fellowship, in book and movie form, can evoke such emotions but the persons down the street are below one's radar?

Anyway, 'tis done. Well done to Alatar and all the posters on these threads. Now what can we think to discuss next? PS - added my thanks to the Feedback and suggestions board - maybe others would like to follow.

You've been far too kind, and let's not discount the role that you and others have played in this collaborative work as well.

[Essex]

Alatar, get over the bed hopping!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Alatar, get over the bed hopping!

...as soon as the nightmares stop.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I can permit the bed hopping. If it wasn't done silently, it might have been a problem. But PJ, in these last fifteen minutes, makes an important point from Tolkien: that although M and P were affected by their adventures and journeys, it wasn't in the same way as Sam was. I think this is one way in which PJ does it. Another is in the coronation scene, when the people bow to the four hobbits. All four look touched to some degree, but we notice that Merry and Pippin's expressions are pretty different from Frodo and Sam's. Again, later in the Grey Havens, Merry and Pippin turn away from the ship toward home while Sam continues to look into the horizon.

Notice that although Frodo utters the names of Gandalf, Gimli, and Aragorn, he doesn't say anything when Legolas enters the room. Was it because Pippin had knocked the wind out of him, or did he just forget the Elf's name?

What think ye of 'Gorn's crown? It's certainly not the one Tolkien envisioned; JRRT actually made a drawing of the crown and you can see it in his Letters. It works OK, but I would have preferred Tolkien's.

Interesting to see Agent Elrond tearing up in joy. Note that the only times we really see him smile are his first and last appearances in the films; I'm not counting his grim grin as he announces the Fellowship's formation.

Elijah Wood just does some brilliant voiceover here, and I think he was definitely the right choice. He's a much-maligned Frodo and seems to be a fanboy-type in real life, but he's an outstanding actor and does a phenomenal job from beginning to end.

Love some of the humor here in the return to the Shire: the reaction shot from Proudfoot, the reactions from the three hobbits as Sam does whatever to Rosie, and Pippin catching the bouquet.

The music is absolutely haunting as the Grey Havens scene begins, and it's great throughout the scene.

According to the BTS documentaries, the GH scene was filmed not once, not twice, but three times. The first shoot was rendered unusable because Sean Astin took off his vest for lunch break and forgot to put it back on for the afternoon. The second shoot turned out to be out of focus. But third time paid for all, or something like that. Imagine being Wood, Astin, Monaghan, and Boyd, and having to do that scene three separate times!

The final shot of Sam returning to his home is just that: a single shot. Simple, wide, then zooming in, letting us see what we need to see. Notice that Rosie and not one but two of Sam's children are there to greet him. The second is, of course, Frodo-lad, and doesn't he look like the Ringbearer? Cool thing, that.

"Well, I'm back", and then we're on to the credits! Wait, you mean that's it? No more? Never fear; in good time we'll have the Super Duper Deluxe Extended Extended LOTR To End All LOTR Edition, and then we'll get to see Sam's struggle with the Two Watchers, as well as Legolas and Gimli's fortunes after the War!

Or perhaps not. Oh well, PJ, it's been a pretty good ride anyway! Thanks for giving me my three favorite movies (or is it my one favorite movie?) of all time! Don't know what Tolkien would say, but it's not bad, not bad at all!

[Essex]

Alatar, re

Originally Posted by alatar

Me and many other people I know that consider Merry and Pippin's behaviour weird, excessive and/or smarmy.

But the whole story arc for these two was that they 'grew.' We saw even Pip take responsibility and care for Merry. Now we have these two narcissists hogging Frodo. If you must bounce and hug Frodo so be it, but get it out of your system and give the others a chance (can you imagine eight persons on the bed doing the same thing?

.....I cannot have the bouncy beans take a chill pill as that's what they (the actors) I guess wanted to do.

....Do we really need Merry and Pippin to be so excessive in their joy (I'm suddenly thinking of excited dogs, but won't go there) when we have so much more said in a simple look?

....It works without bouncing on a bed.

Let's take a look at what Book Sam felt when he woke up.

But Sam lay back, and stared with open mouth, and for a moment, between bewilderment and great joy, he could not answer. At last he gasped: 'Gandalf! I thought you were dead! But then I thought I was dead myself. Is everything sad going to come untrue? What's happened to the world?'
'A great Shadow has departed,' said Gandalf, and then he laughed and the sound was like music, or like water in a parched land; and as he listened the thought came to Sam that he had not heard laughter, the pure sound of merriment, for days upon days without count. It fell upon his ears like the echo of all the joys he had ever known. But he himself burst into tears. Then, as a sweet rain will pass down a wind of spring and the sun will shine out the clearer, his tears ceased, and his laughter welled up, and laughing he sprang from his bed.
'How do I feel?' he cried. 'Well, I don't know how to say it. I feel, I feel' – he waved his arms in the air – 'I feel like spring after winter, and sun on the leaves; and like trumpets and harps and all the songs I have ever heard!'

So Sam can have these 'exsessive' and joyous thoughts, so why not Pippin and Merry? They went through a fair bit too, let's be honest.

Therefore, I don't see Pipin and Merry's joy being neither weird, excessive nor smarmy!

PS - I didn't realise Jackson took Gandalf's laugh from the book as well. Well Done. (well, ok it was for Sam not Frodo, but I can forgive him that)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Let's take a look at what Book Sam felt when he woke up. So Sam can have these 'exsessive' and joyous thoughts, so why not Pippin and Merry? They went through a fair bit too, let's be honest.

Therefore, I don't see Pipin and Merry's joy being neither weird, excessive nor smarmy!

PS - I didn't realise Jackson took Gandalf's laugh from the book as well. Well Done. (well, ok it was for Sam not Frodo, but I can forgive him that)

Since when do we consider what's in the Books to dictate what can be on the screen? Surely Sam and the others were overjoyed by the Fall of Sauron and the joy of making it through the storm alive. But why then is Sam restrained in his joy whereas Merry and Pippin act like the fools from back in the Shire? I know that this is sounding repetitive, but why can't Merry and Pip have a moment of joy then move aside to allow others access to their 'saviour?' Not only is it weird (my opinion), but after the first few seconds it then becomes hammy, where you start hearing the scene director yelling, "Keep bouncing! More joy! Billy? Do a flip or something? Can we get some jugglers?"

Me thinks that it comes down to personal preference...some, I guess, don't find a bunch of adults bouncing on the bed of a healing companion essexive...oops! I mean excessive.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

Since when do we consider what's in the Books to dictate what can be on the screen?

Alatar, pity we don't have an 'Ironic' smiley to use in this circumstance! I'm sure you were being Ironic there weren't you?

Of course we want as much from the books to dictate what we see on the screen!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Alatar, pity we don't have an 'Ironic' smiley to use in this circumstance! I'm sure you were being Ironic there weren't you?

I think that I was being serious.

Of course we want as much from the books to dictate what we see on the screen!

So why do we get, straight from the books, as you presume, the happy bouncing bed scene, yet do not get Gandalf being the member of the Fellowship to suggest the dark road of Moria (Even worse, Gandalf suggests that they try the Gap!), or Eomer as the brother of Aragorn? Why is it that, when it comes to getting it right with the books, my view is always the path less taken?

I know; it's me.

[Essex]

I said we WANT. Not we GET. Of course we want the film to be as close to the book as it is. Except maybe for the couple of mistakes Tolkien himself made in the editing of his timelines, etc. (Sorry, just being picky with the Bard)

So let's scrap the entire scene and have Sam wake up and meet Gandalf with Frodo already awake. As it's this in the books, then let's have that. But do you really think we the readers can dictate what will be on a Movie adaptation just becasue it's not exactly like it is in the books? So therefore, let's not have a reunion scene with the main characters. For the uninitiated, non book reader (which I put it to you were the VAST majority of people going to see this movie, first time at least!), NOT to have a 'happy ending(s)' like this with the characters celebrating together would be silly.

[alatar]

Again, I've let go and have immersed myself in PJ's world, which is based on, however loosely, on Tolkien's work. We can use the books for guidance but need to tell the story well in the media that we use.

Regardless of whether PJ follows the books or makes up a scene from whole new cloth, he should be at least consistent with the story, characters, 'feel' of the movie and arc. By this scene one would hope that the characters were set for the most part. Why then, after having Merry and Pippin "grow" do we have to jump back to their origins of being selfish fools, then just thereafter, when they return to the Shire, behave more as one would expect.