What if Isengard joined forces with Gondor?

[Texadan]

It seems to me the question then becomes would the forces of Isengard, Rohan, and Gondor be equal, to or superior to, the ancient armies of Gil-Galad and Elendil. It's my impression, and it's only an impression, that they would not. And the former army only prevailed through a fortuitous severing of a finger.

What if Saruman sent his Uruk Hai army to aid Gondor as oppose to sending it to destroy Rohan?

It is conceivable to think that the Ring was on it's way to Gondor from Saruman's & Sauron's point of view. Saruman could not have overthrown Gondor by strength of arms, but could he have helped overthrow Sauron if Gondor, Rohan & Isengard faught in league, putting their differences aside?

Saruman probably guesses that the Fellowship do not intend to use the Ring, rather they seek to hide it from Sauron. If they go to Minas Tirith, Mordor will attack in great numbers very shortly, hence Isengard is unleashed in a suprise attack on Mordor to repel the threat of the Ring being taken by Sauron. By this time, Gondor & Rohan have prepared a full strength army, which has a choice of joining arms with Isengard to overthrow Mordor once & for all - the temptation is too strong & they decide to go for it.

Would Sauron be overthrown in these circumstances?

This brings the Battle of Five Armies to mind in The Hobbit.

[Elmo]

Would Gondor ever ally itself with such monsters whose very act of creation was a despicable act, I don't think so. Maybe if Boromir got the ring

[ninja91]

Well, first of all mansun, Saruman really would not have an Uruk-Hai army unless he had made a pact with Sauron.

But Saruman is very powerful and I do not doubt that he could amass a great army nonetheless if need be. And if he did so, he would surely have helped.

There would be no Uruk-Hai because Saruman created them because he was to "build an army worthy of Mordor". Sauron did not mean to get a bunch of blonde dudes and attack Helm's Deep. He meant build an evil army to strike fear into the West.

I don't think Saruman is as cunning a commander like the Witch King, so he probably wouldn't be that great at amassing a great army like Mordor. But Saruman was prepared to betray Mordor all along at all costs to save the Ring. Rohan & Gondor would not have faught alongside Isengard, rather they would have attacked Mordor at the latter stage of the battle when the Mordor army was shaken up & disorientated to an extent. Isengard afterall had a ferocious army, if somewhat small.

Could Mordor, in theory, be overthrown if all other forces in ME united under one banner against Sauron?

[Raynor]

It depends on the moment they strike. For a good deal of the Third Age, Sauron was vulnerable, himself and the strength of his forces against all (western) M-E. Perhaps the military balance of power was tilted towards the good guys as late as 2951, when Sauron declares himself and rebuilds Barad-dur.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by ninja91

Well, first of all mansun, Saruman really would not have an Uruk-Hai army unless he had made a pact with Sauron.

But Saruman is very powerful and I do not doubt that he could amass a great army nonetheless if need be. And if he did so, he would surely have helped.

There would be no Uruk-Hai because Saruman created them because he was to "build an army worthy of Mordor". Sauron did not mean to get a bunch of blonde dudes and attack Helm's Deep. He meant build an evil army to strike fear into the West.

Very good point!

What force would Saruman have had anyway if he had not become corrupt? He would have been simply a wizard in possession of a high tower. Unless of course he had been able to bring the Dunlendings and other people around to the side of the West.

However, Saruman's move to his 'third way' was a great loss to the forces of the West as his knowledge and intelligence were so valuable, not least his Ring Lore. He was also skilled in technology and could maybe have helped by developing new kids of weaponry. And of course, he had that voice. So even without an army of his own, Saruman would have been a powerful asset.

[Raynor]

There would be no Uruk-Hai because Saruman created them because he was to "build an army worthy of Mordor".

Debatable. That command from Sauron appears only in the movie. Ever since he became corrupt, Saruman wanted to take Sauron's place. Even after he is "ensnared" by Sauron, he still keeps his plans, as he confesses to Gandalf. It doesn't look like he made the uruk hai to help Sauron, quite the contrary case could be made.

If Saruman didn't became corrupt, he would agree to attack Dol Guldur in 2851, and not 90 years later, when it made little difference. It may be argued that the attack could have come sooner (perhaps 1100 when they first found out there was something fishy) if he and Gandalf joined forces and even the ring might have been found sooner, who knows. If there was proper communication between Gandalf and Saruman, Saruman might have inferred quicker about Bilbo's ring being the one. Or maybe they would have tracked it together sooner than Bilbo (Radagast would be more helpful, if Saruman would stick to his good side and offer him a chance to get involved in this.)

The best that they could have achieved would have been to kill Sauron, again and bring the ring to Mount Doom, anytime sooner than 1300, when the nazgul reappear, or the latest in 1980, when the witch-king returns to Mordor.

I thought Saruman built his Uruk-Hai army with the intention of aiding Mordor initially, but the army itself was built by Saruman, not Sauron. So in theory Saruman could have done as he wished with his army.