Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[Findegil]

Lets try another time to bring this to a good end:

But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
'This I say to Celegorm the fell,
by the sight that is given me in this hour,
by neither thin nor any power
shall thy kin the Silmarils gain
before the End, all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall be delivered from the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour all
the sons of Fëanor, and to other care
Lúthien’s great bride-price bear.'

I find "from" less forced than "'neath" and still think that "the sons of Fëanor" is better than "of Feanor’s sons".

Is their anything else missing in this chapter? I will try to get back into the text and the discussion and see if any point is still open.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

After a very quiet period I will try to restart with this part. As fare as I can see we only have to deicide on
BL-EX-03: There has as jet not been a final decision if we want to take the account of Berens journey through Nan Dungortheb into our version or not. Especially I would ask Maedhros to step in here and utter his opinion since Aiwendil and I seemed to be of different minds.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I'm sorry that I have not posted in the Project for a long time, but hopefully my contributions will be more frequent from now on.

Lets have a summary of the previous discussion of BL-EX-03:

Findegil:

BL-EX-03: Here I added the discription of Berens journey through the Ered Gorgorath. Tolkien did not used it the recomenced version and a point can be made that we should therfore leave it out. But I think it was scipt because it was retrospectiv and thus broke the naritive therefore I moved it this place.

Aiwendil:

BL-EX-03: This needs a bit of thought. As much as I like the passage, I am really quite hesitant to include it, since Tolkien left it out of the revised version. I can think of a possible motivation for this removal – it is said in QS (as found in the ’77) that Beren “spoke of it [the journey] to no one after, lest the horror lest the horror return into his mind; and none know how he found a way, and so came by paths that no Man or Elf else ever dared to tread to the borders of Doriath”. I need to think about this further, but for the moment I must say I’m inclined not to re-introduce the passage.

Findegil:

BL-Ex-03: I can understand your point, but there is at least one passage that comes to mind that does contradict your theory. And that passage comes from the most highest priority source we have: "The Lord of the Rings"; volume 2: "The Two Towers"; book IV; chapter IX: "Shelob's Lair":
Quote:
There agelonge she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. ...

I must say that my memory of that passage was based on the German translation which makes the passage even more explicit by making it Shelob (or rather Kankra) herself who fought with Beren. But anyway here we have a passage that tells us that Beren fought against spiders on his way to Doriath. I would therefore argue that even if he never spoke about it the poet of the Lay took the elvish experience of the Ered Grogoroth and Dungorthed and the freedom of poesy and worked out a passage fitting to the occasion. If I imagine Frodo writing his account of his quest with no more information than what we have in the new version of the Lay and in QS as found in Sil77, how could he than say that Beren had fought with the spiders?

Aiwendil:

BL-EX-03: I agree that it must have been known that Beren fought with spiders in Nan Dungortheb. The real issue, I suppose, is only the ract that Tolkien did not include the passage in the revision. I must think on this a bit more, but for the moment, I'm still inclined not to use it.

I want to post now, the rules that we use in the Project:

1. The first priority is always given to the latest editions of works published during Tolkien's lifetime.

2. Secondary priority is given to the latest ideas found among Tolkien's unpublished texts and letters, except where they:
a. violate the published canon without specifically correcting an error or
b. are proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed.

3. If no sources that fall under number 2 can be used to form the actual narrative of a section, then any text or summary created by Christopher Tolkien may be used, provided it does not violate the canon established for that section by numbers 1 and 2 above.

4. No new names and no new expressions in Elvish or in any of J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages may be introduced; all names or expressions in J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages that are updated must be changed either in accordance with a universal change by Tolkien or with a logical reason and a sound etymology.

5. Information in sources of lower level priority are to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.

6. The actual words used by J.R.R. Tolkien or the editor or summarizer of his work may only be changed, including change by deletion or addition, when:
a) they are minimally changed to agree with statements elsewhere in the canon recognized as of greater validity or to are replaced with words or phrases from later or alternate restatements of the same material for reasons of consistancy or are changed to agree with alternate phrasings used by Tolkien of the same or better validity
b) they are minimally changed to avoid great awkwardness of expression such as ungrammatical constructions or too great a difference in style from the passage or section/chapter into which they are now to be inserted.
c) they are minimally added to in order to expand a sentence fragments or an incomplete phrase into a construction that fits grammatically in the new environment
d) they are deleted to avoid redundancy in new passages compiled from more than one source
e) they are, in verse passages, minimal changes that do not add new information to the tale, to maintain the proper metre and rhyme or alliterative pattern of the original verse.

7. Personal aesthetics are not to be used in establishing the actual events in the narrative; all changes and decisions must be justified by the above principles, either:
a) with explicit indication; that is, a text of greater precedence contradicting a text of lesser precedence, or
b) with implicit indication that JRRT almost certainly would have changed/deleted it. But we must base this on some evidence or text from JRRT or CJRT; that is, a text of greater precedence suggesting beyond reasonable doubt a contradiction with a text of lesser precedence, or
c) in cases where two options are given precisely equal validity by the above guidelines, by a majority vote based on personal aesthetics and individual opinions.
A corallary is that we may not disregard any text or note, old idea or projected change, by JRRT unless it is invalidated by one of the above principles, explicitly or implicitly; that is, we must have a REASON for rejecting something.

It is obvious that the The Lay of Leithian recommenced is newer than the original Lay, but the fact is as Findegil pointed it out, Beren did in fact had an encounter with them as stated in the canonical LOTR.
I wonder at the following, if one persons reads our Translations from the Elvish, wouldn't he tell us why there is nothing about the encounter that Beren had in Nan Dungortheb with the spiders, that he had already read in LOTR.

I'm sorry for posting this Aiwendil, but you made the following point:

As for Sador/Sadog: I have long been convinced that we cannot implement the proposed alteration of the character to a Drug. Still, a presentation of all the valid material as a single narrative is one of the main goals of this project, so there is something to be said for placing this material in the First Age, irrespective of its original context in "Of Dwarves and Men".

It is my view that we should include the fragment from the original Lay, because it is a valid material (canonical in fact) into the narrative.

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros has convinced me (it seems references to the project's principles tend to do that). Tolkien may have taken the passage out for aesthetic reasons, but as it is valid canonically it can stay.

[Findegil]

Than I think we are done with this chapter.

Will work a bit on tonight and see if I can bring a finished version up in the privat forum.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

As promised, here are the notes I have on the text of this chapter. I wrote these comments some two years ago, so they're not exactly fresh in my mind but I've just glanced through them again and I think I've sufficiently reminded myself of the issues they mention. Some of these are just typos which may or may not have already been caught and silently corrected.

Line 331:

where Eilinel long since had laid

Should be ‘where Eilinel long since had lain’.

BL-EX-04: There are two problems here that I hadn’t noticed:

BL-EX-03 <Lay; old Version BL-EX-04 Then {all his}[on this] journey{'s} lonely he fare,

First, this is ungrammatical; second, it’s an extra line that doesn’t rhyme! I think we can just delete the line:

BL-EX-03 <Lay; old Version BL-EX-04 {Then all his journey's lonely fare,}
{the}[The] awful mountains' stones he stained {565}
with blood of weary feet, and gained

BL-EX-06: Re-reading this I noticed that we have not completely eliminated the retrospective aspect of the passage:

now all these horrors like a cloud {575}
BL-EX-06 {faded from}[lay on his] mind. The waters loud
falling from pineclad heights no more
he heard, those waters grey and frore
that bittersweet he drank and filled [610]
his mind with madness - all was stilled.

Here we say that the ‘waters loud . . . no more he heard’ and that ‘all was stilled’. In the original Lay these statements described his changed state of mind when he reached Doriath, and they cannot be used here in describing the journey as it happens.

I think it might be best to drop lines 606-611 entirely:

BL-EX-06 and there they lived, and the sucked bones
lay white beneath on the dark stones. {- [605]
now all these horrors like a cloud {575}
faded from mind. The waters loud
falling from pineclad heights no more
he heard, those waters grey and frore
that bittersweet he drank and filled [610]
his mind with madness - all was stilled.} {580}
He recked not BL-EX-07 {now}[of] the burning road,
the paths demented where he strode

Line 764:

to endless lamentation passed
and in the tombless sea was cast.

The story here seems to be that Maglor cast himself into the sea, whereas the story we’ve followed is that he cast the Silmaril into the sea but survived (and was lost) himself. I suppose we could try something like:

to endless lamentation passed
{and}[when] in the {tombless} sea {was}[the Jewel he] cast.

BL-RG-00.5: I know this was my suggestion, but looking at it again I don’t think it works:

BL-RG-00.5 and tree-propped halls, the {forest-god}[forest-lord],
rides his great stallion golden-shod

The lord/shod rhyme just isn’t close enough. I can’t think of anything particularly good, but I suppose there’s this:

BL-RG-00.5 and tree-propped halls{, the forest-god}[in forests old]
rides his great stallion {golden-shod}[shod with gold]

BL-RG-01: Just a typo here: ‘Finrafin’ should be ‘Finarfin’.

Line 1833:

There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as the {Gnomes}[Elves]
were gathered to their fading homes,

Here we lose the rhyme with the change to ‘Elves’. I’ve stared at these lines for quite a while but can’t come up with anything suitable. So I think perhaps we should just delete lines 1833-1837:

The mists were mantled round the towers {1595}
of the Elves' white city by the sea.
{There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as the {Gnomes}[Elves]
were gathered to their fading homes, [1835]
and thronged the long and winding stair {1600}
that led to the wide echoing square.}

There Fëanor mourned his jewels divine,

BL-RG-09: Here we settled for the somewhat clunky:

of Manwë BL-RG-09 {Lord of Gods}[Lord of Arda]. Who calls

It occurs to me we could improve it with:

of Manwë BL-RG-09 {Lord of Gods}[Arda’s Lord]. Who calls

BL-RG-11.5: I think we can stay closer to the meaning of the text here with:

BL-RG-11.5 not [Valar’s] might {of Gods}, not moveless fate

Line 1880: Again we lose the rhyme with {Gnomes}[Elves]:

The wars and wandering of the {Gnomes}[Elves] [1880]
this tale tells not. Far from their homes

Here we don’t have the luxury of being able to simply delete the lines, since they form the necessary bridge between Feanor’s speech and what follows. We could try this:

The wars and wandering {of the Gnomes}[that them befell]
this tale {tells not.}has not the space to tell,
how they fought and laboured in the North.

. . . which, however, may be taking too much liberty.

BL-RG-13: Same typo again: ‘Finrafin’ for ‘Finarfin’.

BL-RG-15: Same typo again.

BL-RG-16: If we take my suggestion for BL-RG-11.5 then we should probably make this:

BL-RG-16 no [Vala’s] might {of Gods}, no binding spell,

BL-EX-09:

BL-EX-09 {One stooped and}[Edrahil then] lifted up {his}[the] crown,

I think the meter would be better without ‘then’:

BL-EX-09 {One stooped and}[Edrahil] lifted up {his}[the] crown,

BL-EX-10: I think 2162 doesn’t scan right. Better would be:

{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain} {the Silmarils}their Jewels {ever unto world's end.}regain

Line 2165:

shall {come indeed}be delivered from the triple peak,

This is really nitpicking, but technically I wouldn’t say the Silmaril is delivered from the triple peak (i.e. the Silmaril was not on top of Thangorodrim); it was delivered from Angband, which is beneath the triple peak. That’s why my initial suggestion was:

shall {come indeed}be delivered ’neath the triple peak,

. . . which perhaps doesn’t read quite as well but is more literally correct. I’m tempted to go with it.

BL-SL-05:

'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain[
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.
Thirty are slain by twelve you claim,]
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk [2375]
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak {2130}
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair. [2380]
BL-SL-05 {Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain: {2135}
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard, {2140}
that foul should be what once was clean, [2385]
that dark should be where light has been?

First, whence comes ‘Thiry are slain by twelve you claim’? Is this an editorial addition?

More importantly, it seems to me that it’s not enough to remove lines 2381-2382. I think that it was not merely Boldog’s specific mission to capture Luthien that was rejected but rather the whole motif of Morgoth having heard of and desiring Thingol’s beautiful daughter. With that in mind, I think we may, unfortunately, need to delete most of the passage:

BL-SL-05 'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain[;]
{warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk [2375]
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak {2130}
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair. [2380]
Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain:} {2135}
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.
{Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard, {2140}
that foul should be what once was clean, [2385]
that dark should be where light has been?}

BL-RG-23: A very minor point, but with the change of ‘God’ to ‘Great’ I would remove the comma after ‘Tauron’:

{Tavros,}[Tauron] the BL-RG-23 {God}[Great] whose horns did blow

Lines 2507 and 2508: Missing an apostrophe in both lines: {Tavros’}[Tauron’s].

BL-RG-30: I think the line is now too short. A metrical ‘now’ might work:

had little cause now to BL-RG-30 {wrest from Thu}[pursue]

BL-RG-35: I think we can keep the ‘thus’:

BL-RG-35 Thus [Sauron] came{ Thu}, as wolf more great

BL-RG-38:

Then sprang about the darkened North {3130}
the Sickle of the BL-RG-38 {Gods}[North], and forth

We might eliminate the extra ‘north’ with:

Then sprang about the darkened North {3130}
the Sickle of the BL-RG-38 {Gods}[Valar]{, and}[;] forth

BL-RG-40: I just realized that we never actually use the name ‘Thuringwethil’ here. It would be nice if we could work it in. A possibility that occurs to me is:

the other {was a batlike}[Thuringwethil’s] garb
with mighty fingered wings, a barb
like iron nail at each joint's end -
such wings as their dark cloud extend {3405}
against the moon, when in the sky [3685]
from Deadly Nightshade screeching fly
BL-RG-40 {Thu's messengers}[Sauron’s bats].

Thus we accomplish several things: a. name Thuringwethil; b. still specify that the garb is bat-like; and c. reduce the last line by one syllable.

On the other hand, Thuringwethil is named later in line 4227, so maybe this is unnecessary.

BL-SL-07: As with BL-SL-05, it seems to me that not only Boldog’s raid but the whole element of Morgoth hearing of Luthien was removed. We can accomplish this like so:

the aisled forests there was heard
great Huan baying.

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Then came word {3665}
{most passing strange of Lúthien [3945]
wild-wandering by wood and glen,
and Thingol's purpose long he weighed,
and wondered, thinking of that maid
so fair, so frail. A captain dire, {3670}
Boldog, he sent with sword and fire
to Doriath's march; but battle fell
sudden upon him: news to tell
never one returned of Boldog's host,
and Thingol humbled Morgoth's boast. {3675}
Then his heart with doubt and wrath was burned:
new tidings of dismay he learned,} [3950]
BL-RG-43 {how Thu was }[of Sauron] o'erthrown and his strong isle

BL-SL-08: Typo: ‘kraft’ for ‘craft’.

As I think about it, I don’t know that the change {magic}[power] is necessary.

I would also change ‘and the hallowing of Varda’ to ‘and hallowed by Varda’:

BL-EX-11.3 <LT Behold now that Silmaril blazeth with a white and hidden fire of its own nature and is possessed of a fierce and holy BL-EX-11.5 magic - for did it not come from Valinor and the blessed realms, being fashioned with {spells of the Gods and Gnomes}[the craft of Fëanor and hallowed by Varda] before evil came there

BL-EX-17.3: Typo: ‘Men’ for ‘Man’.

[Findegil]

A few comments as fare as I can do in a rush:

Line 331: Done.

BL-EX-03: I think you missed one line, but you are correct that it is ungramatical. What about:

BL-EX-03 <Lay; old Version BL-EX-04 Then {all his}[on a] journey{'s} lonely he fare,
BL-EX-05 {the}[of] hunger and {the}[of] haggard care,
the awful mountains' stones he stained
with blood of weary feet, and gained

BL-EX-06: agreed, so not happily.

Line 764: Verry good catch. I agree to your suggestion.

BL-RG-00.5: I like your suggestion, but I think the coma has to stay. The 'tree-propped halls' are Taurons halls in Valmaren it is not a description of the forest he rides in:

Mayhap the Lord {Tauros}[Tauron] from his gate
BL-RG-00.5 and tree-propped halls, {the forest-god}in forests old
rides his great stallion {golden-shod}shod with gold
amid the trumpets' tempest loud,
amid his green-clad hunters proud,

All the Finrafin's I could find are corrected.

I will come back to the rest later on.

Respectfuly
Findegil