I don't understand this either...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think people are mixing up Erotic feelings and love!

The books clearly states that there is love between the different male charachters, it was love for Aragorn that made the grey company and others walk the path of the dead and so on.

These feelings are not easily potraied in a film, I would imagine. You could make them say it, but I doubt that it would work well. . . there where not one scene in the movies that made me think that the charachters enjoyed each others company in that way, well exept for the scene where the hobbits are all cudly in a bed and Gandalf think it is great to watch. . .

Of course it could be that Tolkien belives that love in its purest form only can be shared betwen two men! Not necesarily sexual. . . .
But I guess Beren and Luthien kind of goes against that theory.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Originally Posted by thinlo

Now, where's all this come from? Is there some hidden gay agenda in the movies? Or are the movies unintentionately homoerotic? Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere? Or is it just random that this many people have "noticed" something?

I think part of it is probably the teenagers having sexual agendas. A lot of teens do see sex everywhere, even where it isn't and never was. I am not one of them, but a lot of them do. It's actually a little disgusting, this obsession with sex.

I think that another factor is that in these unfortunate times, friendship has become very superficial. People are afraid of love because often times, the media overlooks great friendships in favor of romance. It's almost as though true friendships don't really exist for the media...and when they do, they're always between girls. It's socially acceptable for girls to love their friends. Physical contact between girls isn't frowned upon as much as it is between guys...though I still have the memorable experience of being asked if my best friend and I were in love. We just laugh a lot together and aren't afraid to hug each other...but we're both straight and she had a boyfriend at the time that question was asked. Silly thing to ask, if you ask me.

It's a lot worse for men, at least here in the USA (can't speak about in other countries). So many of them, while not strictly homophobic, seem to be mortally afraid to be mistaken for gay...and the problem is intensified by the fact that men are discouraged from being emotional at all.

Anyway, because of this tabboo on contact and even on close friendship, sometimes seeing true, close friendship makes people feel uncomfortable...

And the drought of close friendships, particularly in the media, makes for the possibility that people will make the mistake of assuming love between friends is actually love between significant others.

Middle-earth lacks the social standards of our modern world.

Frodo and Sam are close friends. They (gasp of mock horror!) are able to touch each other. They are not afraid to be emotional together, to share deep feelings of joy and of sorrow and of fear. They, in fact, (NOOOO!) love each other. Because they're FRIENDS.

Aragorn is friends with Boromir. They've been to hell and back together, fought together, and travelled together for a long time. Of course they're friends. By the end, they each come to recognize the nobility in the other. I find it perfectly reasonable that Boromir's death would be emotional for both of them...and yes, Aragorn kisses Boromir's forehead after he passes. (ewwww! ) It's a gesture of respect, grief, and of platonic love. There should not be any kind of issue.

And so Aragorn and Legolas look at each other. Well. You can't expect the Fellowship to travel all that long way without once making eye contact! And they, too, are friends. Does making eye contact with a friend mean that you are in love with him or her? No, and in fact, the question sounds absurd to me.

No one in my close circle of friends had a problem grasping this fact, because we are all the unashamed type of friend. We're close, and as such, are not afraid to hug each other or to cry together...or to make eye contact, .

The trouble is that other people see it and can't understand. They feel uncomfortable. And one of the reflex ways of dealing with discomfort or feelings of awkwardness is to make a joke about it to break the ice...and so they make jokes about the characters being gay. Some people actually look at it and see homosexuality. Some of them may actually be gay, and then it probably is a case of, as Alatar pointed out, seeing what they want to see.

I feel sorry for the people who think that way but aren't gay, though. Because they have never known true friendship.

Whew...that was long, and actually turned into a rant. I think I ought to clarify, though...I have no problem with homosexuality in its rightful place. For instance, I loved Brokeback Mountain. But people not understanding friendship and that whole love=romance thing...or more accurately love=sex thing really bothers me. It's a rant that's been lurking in me ever since I found Tolkien fandom.

To me, the books are practically about that kind of friendship-love. It's something I hold very dear.

[Nimrodel_9]

Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere? Or is it just random that this many people have "noticed" something?

I would have to agree with these two. I could go on and on about this, but I don't have time.
You know, I think that our world is just a little messed up. I mean, some people can pull homosexual stuff from anything. They just can't believe that it is possible for two guys to be good friends and nothing more. They are probably sitting there, watching the movie with their best friend of the same sex, and think nothing of that. It's all very frustrating. I hate it when people bring stuff like that up.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Actually I don't think it is teenagers that is to blame for seeing these things. . .Sex is almost every where in western culture and I doubt that the teenagers put it there.

[Boromir88]

There definitely is a big misconception over friendship between males in the United States. I believe it's better understood in other parts of the world, as the common greeting method in Europe (whether it's a male greeting a male or not) is to kiss him on the cheeks. As only the movie Borat will show this 'clash of cultures' and the differences between greeting a fellow man in the US and that of other countries.

Whether you think it's stupid, or not, really isn't the point. The point is it's reality in the US that there is a strict set of man laws for the men to follow under or their sexuality will be up for question. Some common Man Laws around are:

-Men may not talk to other men about anything except sports, beer, cars, poker, and sex (with a female of course).
-A Man may not walk through the same door as another male friend unless the two are in a race where a prize in involved.
-A man need not say anything to a friend that is walking by. All that needs to be done is a nod of the head, no words should ever be exchanged.
-Men should never ever for any reason watch a Soap Opera

There is a belief in the US that Men in no way can have strong connections or friendships with other men. It's strictly an impersonal relationship of Men...say getting together to watch a sports game.

Seems rather foolish, and is certainly homophobic, but that's how it is. Anything that has to deal with emotions/feelings should not be done between men. That's probably why (at least) American students view the friendships between Sam/Frodo, and Aragorn/Legolas in a sexual way, because the idea that men can be personal with eachother and still only be friends is not possible.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Rune

Actually I don't think it is teenagers that is to blame for seeing these things. . .Sex is almost every where in western culture and I doubt that the teenagers put it there.

I quite agree. I hate watching TV, or even driving by billboards. Though I don't believe it's just western culture...bur we do have some kind of different twist on it, I think.

Boro hits the nail on the head, too, for me. I have ranted on many occasion about the "Man Laws" and foolishness of it.

I think there are countless examples in literature, even American literature, from even just the early half of the past century, which people just don't understand now because the concept of "love" has been equated with "sex," especially on the male front. Girls will say to each other that they "love" each other, but I don't know how often they really mean it, because I think it likely that they feel the same way: that "love" is reserved for on specific type/side/definition of it - it is simply more socially acceptable for girls to say "I love you" to each other as well as to guys.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that an "obsession" with sex, I think, is a rather natural, and dare I say hormonal thing. Teenagers (and people much older, too!) are going to think about it quite a lot, and are going to see it a lot of places it isn't. Maybe this is because of the culture, but maybe it's a natural thing. What I think makes the difference between a mature person and an immature person is to be more than simple thoughts or feelings, and to setup a separation between the natural workings of their consciousness and preconsciousness, and their actions, speech, and real considerations. That's human self-control...I think part of what makes us human. But that is an entirely different conversation...

[Folwren]

I, too, have heard comments about homosexuality being protrayed in the movie and books - mostly pertaining to Frodo and Sam. (I actually never heard Aragorn and Legolas paired up...I never noticed that they looked at each other except in conversation. Sheesh. What's a man supposed to do while talking to another guy?) It makes me hot with anger and disgust.

I talked about it once with my older brother. We were talking about how close in friendship Frodo and Sam got on their journey to Mordor and through it. He said as follows:

"They just don't understand what real friendship is like. You stick two of those boys or young men together, give them a gun and send them out to fight in Vietnam by themselves and they'll become close friends, too!"

And I think that's it. They just can't comprehend the torture, the agony, and the difficulty of the journey, the mental torment it must have been! You need someone to lean on!

And, yeah, as Durelin said - girl's often say 'I love you' to one another. What about your family? You say that to your Mom and Dad and siblings (well........you should). There are quite a few different types of love, and I think the problem with the people who are saying that LotR is homosexual don't understand that.

You also need to understand that - at least in the U.S. - everything is about sex. You can't get away from it - unless you're homeschooled, like I was. There is no other 'love' to the common teenager or young person, and even to some of the older supposedly 'mature' person, than that. And so, when they watch a movie that has no girls in it, they try to apply it and what do they find?? My blood boils to think. I think that's actually why PJ had to add Arwen so much....to get some people off his back about having no girl in it. Bah humbug.

Anyway, there are just some of my thoughts. I think it's disgusting. The thought would have never run through my little innocent mind if it weren't for some sick people.

-- Folwren