Gothmog as Pat

[The Saucepan Man]

Gothmog was portrayed as a Nazgul in a LotR wargame which I used to play many years ago (and which I still have) and I have accordingly thought of him as such ever since.

Simple reasoning for a simple soul.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've always just assumed that Gothmog was a Nazgul -- I mean, it's pretty clear, isn't it, that the Nazgul are the worst and most powerful of Sauron's servants. It doesn't make sense that there could be an orc or even a powerful Man who somehow supercedes 8 of the 9...I mean:

Orc -- debased and broken slaves; quarrel amongst themselves; stupid. Given the sample orcs we've seen, can you imagine a creature like that ordering around a Nazgul?

Men -- better than orcs, but Nazgul are Men corrupted by and enhanced with a Ring of Power: why, if you are a Nazgul, have as your second in command a Ringless Man when you can have a Ringed Man?

[Anguirel]

I think Gothmog was a pseudo-historico-literary reference to the earlier Gothmog.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I really have no idea what Gothmog is. . . but I kind of pictured him Orc/man/thing and not Nazgul.

I quite simply think that Tolkien would have told us if he was.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I really have no idea what Gothmog is. . . but I kind of pictured him Orc/man/thing and not Nazgul.

I quite simply think that Tolkien would have told us if he was.

Yeah, that's just my words. I'd subscribe under this one. And to Fordim, I don't think the nazgul - apart from the Witch-King - had in fact any "stable political function". I mean, for example in the battle of Morannon, they were not down there in command of the "2nd through 9th battalion of Mordor", but were flying somewhere above and shrieking (later on, fighting the eagles and even later on, flying to Mount Doom to stop Frodo. They were "special forces" in that way, the most trusted ones, required for specific tasks.) Some Men, Orcs and Olog-hai did the leadership part in battle in front of the Black Gate. And about that Sauron would never give such rank to an Orc - what if he did? Take Grishnakh, for example. He had been assigned a task which was more than what I'd ever entrust to an Orc, but Sauron did it! And here we have some parallel: with the company sent with Grishnakh, they were supposed to make contact with a nazgul near Anduin. And when the nazgul was not present, Grishnakh had to take all the responsibility on himself. How he ended, is another thing.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I have always viewed Gothmog as an orc. Maybe this is incorrect, but it seems more likely to me than him being a Nazgul.

Throughout LOTR, we are never once given the name of a Ringwraith. In fact, only one is given a title - the Witch-king. The only named Nazgul is Khamul the Easterling, and that only in "The Hunt for the Ring" in Unfinished Tales. So it seems quite remarkable to me that we would see a Nazgul mentioned by name and yet not identified as a Nazgul, within the text of LOTR.

Meanwhile, Orcs are named several times - Ugluk, Grishnakh, Shagrat, Gorbag are the most famous; though you also have, among others, Lagduf, Muzgash, Lugdush (which actually seems to be a combo of the two, now that I think about it), Mauhur, and Snaga; the latter being a commonly used title for lesser Orcs by the Uruks. In The Hobbit, we have Azog and Bolg. There may be named Orcs in The Silmarillion, but if so, I do not recall any.

On the other hand, all these Orc-names are apparently in Black Speech, while Gothmog is an Elvish name. Which could point to him being a Man - or of course a Ringwraith.

Gothmog is described as the "lieutenant of Morgul" - as already pointed out, the Witch-king is called the "Morgul-lord", so it does make sense that Gothmog was his second-in-command.

There are only three comparable positions among Sauron's forces. First, the Mouth of Sauron, who was Lieutenant of Barad-dur. Second, Shagrat, who is I believe described as "Captain of the Tower" of Cirith Ungol. And finally, Khamul, who was the captain or lieutenant (I cannot remember which) of Dol Guldur.

A Man, an Orc, and a Ringwraith, respectively, as you will notice. So apparently there would be precedent for Gothmog to be any of these races.

The only two other possible factors I can think of that might have bearing on Gothmog's race are Grishnakh and Gorbag. Grishnakh had some position at Lugburz, I believe; and Gorbag was very likely some sort of lieutenant or sergeant for Minas Morgul. Not having the book to hand, I can't ascertain either one of those, but they sound right.

Regardless, there's not enough room to make a certain conclusion either way. So I guess I'll stick to his being an Orc.

[Liriodendron]

I voted orc...I always imagined him a smart, ruthless, upper echelon orc creature...
his name sounds orcish to me. I know most orcs were supposed to be crude oafish creatures....but surely there had to be some exceptions....variety.

[Liriodendron]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Gothmog was portrayed as a Nazgul in a LotR wargame which I used to play many years ago (and which I still have) and I have accordingly thought of him as such ever since.

Simple reasoning for a simple soul.

Really! Someone better tell them they made a mistake!

[Boromir88]

I highly doubt Gothmog was an Orc. At a stretch I can agree with Raynor about Gothmog the Man-Orc. I don't see Sauron placing an Orc in such a high position as second in command to the Witch-King. He doesn't seem the type to trust the Orcs with high tasks. They were capable of fighting, hard to control at times, Sauron operated through fear as far as controlling them. Placing an Orc second-in-command of his army isn't something I see Sauron doing. A Man-Orc I can see as a stretch, as Raynor points out they did have the leadership qualities that Orcs didn't have.

And we do know for sure that Sauron trusted Men more. As it is Men whom he gives the 9 Rings out to and it is a Man that is his Lieutenant of Barad-dur. So, why not it be a Man who is Lieutenant of his armies?

Also, to note Gothmog is in command of a group of Men. Would Men really want to be led by an Orc, and would Sauron put an Orc to lead his men? I doubt it.

As far as a Nazgul, there's nothing to say for or against it. Personally, I agree with Ninja...afterall this is a person that gets one line in the entire story. Tolkien left his Nazgul nameless, as if you don't have a name that shows you don't have an identity. You are under the complete control of another power. To give his Nazgul names is to give them an identity, therefor they remain nameless. The Witch-King is a title, and Khamul is only mentioned in a draft of Unfinished Tales, no where else so I don't think we can apply that to LOTR.

[Amras Oronar]

I'd say Gothmog is a Maiar, he is lord of balrogs and captain of Angband, no orc or man can do that, balrogs (maiar) are greater than man or orcs...

And a nazgul is af course redicoules, the nazgul are 'ring wraiths'. How can Gothmog be a nazgul if the rings of power were not even made to get him into that state...

Now I can't see anything but a balrog himself to be lord of balrogs.... I mean I don't think even nazgul's are powerfull enough for that

[Amras Oronar]

Oooohh... I think I wasn't very accurate in this, since I thought of the Gothmog of the first age not the third

Sorry.........

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't see Sauron placing an Orc in such a high position as second in command to the Witch-King. He doesn't seem the type to trust the Orcs with high tasks.

Only one thing, Boro. I also don't agree with Gothmog being an Orc (as I pointed out before) - but actually, Sauron gave the Orcs important tasks. I don't think that Sauron would give such a complicated and strategic-mind-needing thing like command of an entire army to the hands of an Orc, but I mean that Sauron entrusted for example Grishnakh with search for the Ringbearer (this is one thing which always puzzled me the most!).

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Also, to note Gothmog is in command of a group of Men. Would Men really want to be led by an Orc, and would Sauron put an Orc to lead his men? I doubt it.

That's a good point. I'd stand for it. And one more thing - the name Gothmog, I think, was taken by someone who had some knowledge of its meaning - of its prior possessor. I doubt it was a given name. Rather - and this I find quite likely - some relentless Man leader who rose to high rank because of his ferociousness and brutality and non-questioning Sauron's orders, acquired this "nickname", or maybe he heard in the "high society" (like on a banquet in Barad-Dur where just the high officers were normally allowed) the story of Gothmog (which was narrated by the Mouth of Sauron like a funny history of old and Gothmog would normally never have heard of it) and he said himself "yeah, that's cool, from now on I'll call myself Gothmog".

[ArathorofBarahir]

He looks like an Orc to me.

[ninja91]

Originally Posted by ArathorofBarahir

He looks like an Orc to me.

But that is only the movie's depiction of Gothmog. There is alot of evidence (some of it stated above) that he was not an orc.