Why take a body? Why make a Ring?

[Raynor]

Well, having a great capacity for learning doesn't necesarily mean you will learn the right things...so speaks one who wasted much of her youthful capacity for learning by having her nose stuck inside Tolkien books!

You know what they say: all is happy in the best world possible . Anyway, may I be permited to note a non sequitur in your statement? Your example is quite the opposite of what you were trying to prove .

Do you think his arrogance was responsible for this? That he believed he had control and so could outwit Sauron? Or was it something else? One mind cannot 'see' into another if they are using 'unwill', supposedly only Eru can do this. So did Sauron use language with Saruman? Or did he trick him?

I don't think he was that stupid - although Tolkien sort of equates (his) evil with stupidity:

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, ii, Myths Transformed, HoME X

But certainly [Saruman] had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose.

If he had the tiniest shred of memory left, he would remember that Sauron had already outwited and outstrenghtened (sp) him, and he did it with a palantir at that.

Originally Posted by Tale of Years, Appendices

c: 3000.
Saruman dares to use the palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone.

I don't think Saruman used language either, I guess he was just scared out of his wits by the turnings of the events, which were arranging against his double crossings, that he wanted to have a second opininion through the palantir. I presume that the power Sauron wielded infused the palantir(s) - therefore when Saruman opened (?) his mind in order to direct the palantir to the locations he wanted, he may have unwillingly and unknowingly interacted with Sauron - who may even have directed what Saruman saw, as he did with Denethor.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

You know what they say: all is happy in the best world possible . Anyway, may I be permited to note a non sequitur in your statement? Your example is quite the opposite of what you were trying to prove .

Oh no, I mean it alright! I ought to have been reading about Hitler or the Corn Laws or somesuch 'useful' learning, which might have helped me get higher exam results but I was, quite literally, 'away with the faeries'...

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't think Saruman used language either, I guess he was just scared out of his wits by the turnings of the events, which were arranging against his double crossings, that he wanted to have a second opininion through the palantir. I presume that the power Sauron wielded infused the palantir(s) - therefore when Saruman opened (?) his mind in order to direct the palantir to the locations he wanted, he may have unwillingly and unknowingly interacted with Sauron - who may even have directed what Saruman saw, as he did with Denethor.

I agree. Doesn't it say somewhere that the Palantiri did not work through the medium of sound anyway? I am suspicious that they in fact worked in some ways via sanwe. They 'capture' past events which can then be seen, and they do not show 'future' events, but can show current ones, obviously. They can show wider scenes but must be correctly manipulated to achieve this. They also only work in a 'two-way' connection (in that you can only contact one other stone at once - no 'conference calls' ); only the stone in Osgiliath could 'see' all other stones. Also, thinking about the way Denethor was trapped unwittingly and eventually driven to despair by it, yet unaware of Sauron's hand/mind, suggests that sanwe had something to do with it, Men having weak skills of unwill.

[Raynor]

Doesn't it say somewhere that the Palantiri did not work through the medium of sound anyway?

Indeed, in Unfinished Tales:

Originally Posted by The Palantiri

Alone the palantiri could only "see:" they did not transmit sound.

I am suspicious that they in fact worked in some ways via sanwe

I agree - at least this is what we make of Pippin and Sauron's discussion:

Originally Posted by The Palantir

He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood.

(although Pippin is sort of lipsynch-ing- probably due to lack of skill.

I am not sure that Denethor was unknowing of Sauron; he did fight against him and his pull towards Mordor, with great expense of energy (although aided by the fact that he inherited authority).

[Tarpaladin]

Originally Posted by Raynor

You know what they say: all is happy in the best world possible .

Voltaire isn't it? Candide to be precise?

[Tarpaladin]

Could someone fill me in quickly on what "sanwe" is please?

[Raynor]

Interesting thing that bit about Voltaire; I don't know why I thought the phrase belongs to a modern day physicist.

According to the editorial glossary to Osanwe kenta, Enquiry into the Communication of Thought:

sanwe= 'thought; a thought; as the action or an act of sama [mind]

[Tarpaladin]

Well Voltaire said (or more precisely, the lead character in Candide had a habit of saying) "Everything is for the best, in the best of all possible worlds". You are probably right about some physisist saying it, but I thought it was close enough to Voltaire to have been a slightly mis-worded quote.