Silmarillion - Chapter 03 - Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Poor Aule; even his dear wife argued against him at the council.

Hmm. Is your comment based more on Primary World notions of authority in matrimony? What are the conditions of marriage among the Valar?

Surely if one of them is given an aspect of the world to care for, that care does not diminish upon private cohabitation.

[Raynor]

Hmm. Is your comment based more on Primary World notions of authority in matrimony?

No, that is not what I had in mind. I think it was quite funny, in a way, to see Aule defending the elves, almost all by himself. All the others against him; so what if they were proven true in the end? Pfft. His loyalty (if I can so call it - arguing for them being free from evil) for the Children of Eru, although "unreasonable", is moving to me. I am fond of all those jokes where good friends side with you, even if you are wrong, even if they know you are wrong. I know, I know, that is not a good thing in itself, not even to wish for; nice nonetheless .

What are the conditions of marriage among the Valar?

According to the commentary on the first section of the Annals of Aman, the spouse means for valar "only an 'association'". They affinities are evident in their bodies (or perhaps more exactly, in their gender):

Originally Posted by Ainulindale, Silmarillion

But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby.

I would say that their "born" affinities are also evident in the choice of their "spouses"; given their imense status, I would say that each were independent in decision making from the others, sort of speaking - although united in the purpose of serving Eru.

Surely if one of them is given an aspect of the world to care for, that care does not diminish upon private cohabitation.

I would note that there is strife however between their creations, as foretold by Eru:

Originally Posted by Of Aule and Yavanna, Simlarillion

But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.

And Aule's and Yavanna's children:

- Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.

- Nonetheless they will have need of wood, said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.

Perhaps this strife would also reflect on the relations between the valar, esspecially with "spouses".

[Aiwendil]

Raynor wrote:

I think it was quite funny, in a way, to see Aule defending the elves, almost all by himself. All the others against him;

I wouldn't say that 'all the others are against him'. On the contrary, it seems to me that most of the Valar are, at this point, on Aule's side - after all, they do go to war for the sake of the Elves and they do summon the Elves to Valinor.

Anguirel wrote:

Is this truly a Summons, or only an Invitation? Or does it harden from the latter to the former?

It seems to me to be the latter. As you point out, the Valar don't seem to object to Lenwe's turning aside - nor to the refusal of the summons by the Avari. I think that, even if summoning the Elves was the 'wrong' decision, the Valar are actually rather wise here - if they were to force the Elves to come to Aman, they would surely lose a lot of esteem among them. Moreover, the Elves would really be 'prisoners' in a sense.

[Raynor]

I wouldn't say that 'all the others are against him'. On the contrary, it seems to me that most of the Valar are, at this point, on Aule's side - after all, they do go to war for the sake of the Elves and they do summon the Elves to Valinor.

I was referring to the debate from Laws and customs of the eldar, mentioned previously, firstly by you, about whether Miriel death was due to the marring of the eldar (an idea which Aule rejected).

[Bêthberry]

[quote=Raynor]

Originally Posted by Of Aule and Yavanna, Simlarillion

But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.

I've always found this line interesting for how it revisits the line in Genesis concerning enmity between the serpent and womankind.

Originally Posted by Genesis 3:15, not the rock band

I will put emnity between you and the woman, between your brood and hers. They shall strike at your head and you shall strike at their hee.

[Aiwendil]

I was referring to the debate from Laws and customs of the eldar, mentioned previously, firstly by you, about whether Miriel death was due to the marring of the eldar (an idea which Aule rejected).

Ah - sorry, I was half asleep when I read that.

[Bêthberry]

Hmm, maybe I'm the only one who finds that echo of Genesis interesting. In Genesis, the emnity is between the serpent who led the woman astray and it is imposed as punishment by Yahweh. Yet the echo does not reproduce a similar situation.

In The Silm the occasion of strife is much different and is not a punishment per se. The discord between the elves and men is described in part as a sibling rivalry, but it is occassioned not by seduction or by a breaking of a prohibition directly. It happens because Aule is overcome by the urge to subcreate and by his desire to ensure suitable people to fight Melkor. He remembered parts of the Music, but his memory was unclear. His creation--and it is a creation and not a breaking--arises not from a desire to harm or to destroy, but from an impatience and a desire to ensure that right prospers. It would seem that here he succumbs to the very kind of temptation which Gandalf envisioned for himself should he take the Ring.

That ill effect may arise from the misplaced desire to do good is, I think, very intriguing, especially since Aule is not condemned for his actions.