Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Mister Underhill]

At your service!

[Mithadan]

I was actually going to bring up the very point that Sir Underhill did, poking a little hole in my own argument for the sake of debate. The room for interpretation is one of the things that make Tolkien's work so compelling. Underhill is quite right. We don't know which group of Orcs had orders to seize Hobbits and run. Presumably, Saruman and Sauron both knew the Ring entered Lorien. Both groups of Orcs were lying in wait. The Mordor Orcs on the east side of Anduin (remember them shooting arrows at the Fellowship as they passed?) and the Moria and Saruman Orcs on the west bank. Sauron's orders may have been "kill them all and bring the bodies home", we don't know.

This is a matter of readers' impressions. My impression was pretty much always been that Sauron thought Saruman had the Ring. Others' impressions differ. Absent an express statement on the issue, we can't know. If Tolkien had used a capital "I" in "it" we might know for certain. This isn't determinative. He might have missed or simply not used a capital "I" or an over-zealous editor might have changed it. Has anyone peeked at HoME on this issue? I don't have those volumes with me and really don't have the time to research.

[the phantom]

Think what you will about how much Sauron could see, Fordy, but it is a fact that Sauron's powers/abilities are lesser when using the palantir.

In letter 246 Tolkien says that Aragorn could not have withheld the Ring from Sauron if face to face, and continues on to explain how he was able to "win" the palantir contest despite that.

In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.

Sauron wasn't the rightful owner, so he couldn't wield the palantir perfectly. And on top of that his powers, which would include powers of perception, were greatly dimmed by distance.

I think you should've just stuck with the phone analogy you were using at first. Do you think Sauron could've told the voices of Pippin and Frodo apart on the phone having never heard them before? And really, do you think he could've picked their faces out of a lineup? In person, yes, but just from a photo where there is no physical presence involved? I doubt it. The Nazgul weren't equipped with digital cameras as far as I know.

[Boromir88]

Ai! Ai! So tangling and messy.

I think Sauron only sent one Nazgul because that Nazgul was the closest one. Sure, he could've gathered them all together and sent them in force, but why wait? His precious, his key to absolute victory, was within his grasp! Send for it immediately!~tp

That still really doesn't make sense. Sauron may not have feared Saruman by using the ring mono-a-mono against him, but he definitely saw a weakness if somebody (especially somebody of significant power) got a hold of the Ring:

If that happened, the new possesor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done sine the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.~Letter 131

Unless Sauron was brainless, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't think Sauron would have sent all his forces to Isengard, since he had other things to deal with (Gondor, Lorien, Mirkwood, Erebor...etc) but it was definitely clear Sauron had an overwhelming mass of forces at his disposal. Had the Ring not been destroyed, just the sheer numbers and force of Sauron's armies would have crushed those who opposed him.

Sauron had many armies at his disposal...and again taking into account that the Nine could not get the job done at getting the Ring when they had the chance. If Sauron believed that Saruman had the ring (somebody who had some power), I think it would be more important to him and getting that Ring than just sending one Nazgul.

There are two possibilities I think in only sending one Nazgul...

1) As Mithadan said, perhaps Sauron still felt like he had Saruman controlled and a faithful obedient servant. (However, as Grishnakh shows, Sauron had already begun to grow distrustful of Saruman...so I don't know if this would make sense).

2) He wanted the Hobbit to get as much information from him as possible, which wouldn't require all that much to get. Considering that if Isengard was still standing, Saruman would have soon come to realize this was the wrong hobbit, there wouldn't be much need of him, and probably would willlingly give him up to Sauron. (This is also though just a bunch of possibilities and speculation).

With the questions over the palantir. The palantiri could not be made to lie by anybody. So, they were definitely accurate and reliable sources of information. What Denethor saw in the palantir wasn't lies by Sauron, they were actually taking place...But since Denethor did not have the mind, or will, to contend with Sauron, Sauron was able to control and show Denethor only what he wanted Denethor to see:

’He was too great to be subdued by the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which the power permitted him to see. The knowledge which he obtained was, doubtless often of service to him; yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind."~The Pyre of Denethor

In this encounter with Sauron and Pippin, I would no doubt expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted.

1) Pippin wasn't a rightful owner of the palantir, yet Denethor was of his:

These stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs, to whom alone they belonged by right; but this does not mean that they could only be used rightfully by one of these 'heirs'. They could be used lawfully by anyone authorized by either the 'heir of Anarion' or the 'heir of Isildur', that is, a lawful King of Gondor or Arnor. [...] In Gondor latterly, as the office of Steward rose in importance and became hereditary, providing as it were a permanent 'understudy' to the King, and an immediate viceroy at need, the command and use of the Stones seems mainly to have been in the hands of the Stewards, and the traditions concerning their nature and use to have been guarded and transmitted in their House. Since the Stewardship had become hereditary from 1998 onwards, so the authority to use, or again to depute the use, of the Stones, was lawfully transmitted in their line, and belonged therefore fully to Denethor. ~Unfinished Tales; The Palantiri

Denethor was also a rightful viewer of the Stone (though he was much closer in proximity to Sauron than was Aragorn or Pippin)...however as we see he was unable to wrestle any sort of control over what Sauron showed him.

2) Denethor, Saruman, and Aragorn were much stronger as far as willpower than Pippin was:

"...nor had he [Sauron] any servant whose mental powers were superior to Saruman's or even Denethor's."~ibid

Therefor, I think it's highly possible, that Sauron saw exactly who Pippin was and how he looked. It certainly appears that Sauron won the exchange, as Pippin is in a complete state of shock and fear after he looked into it.

[the phantom]

With the questions over the palantir. The palantiri could not be made to lie by anybody. So, they were definitely accurate and reliable sources of information.

I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

In this encounter with Sauron and Pippin, I would no doubt expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted.

Therefor, I think it's highly possible, that Sauron saw exactly who Pippin was and how he looked.

I don't agree.

For the first bit Sauron speaks to Pippin thinking he is Saruman, which makes it quite clear that the palantir isn't exactly the same as a video conference. So no, I wouldn't expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted. His perception is clearly limited, and he clearly did not see exactly who Pippin was and how he looked.

Pippin had to tell Sauron he was a hobbit. And that's not to mention the fact that Sauron did not even know where Pippin was. He thought he was in Isengard. If you can't even tell where the person is you are talking to, then the method of communication you are using is certainly less than perfect.

[Boromir88]

For the first bit Sauron speaks to Pippin thinking he is Saruman, which makes it quite clear that the palantir isn't exactly the same as a video conference.

Like Fordim says though, why would Sauron assume that somebody else was using the palantir, other than Saruman? Sauron then realizes that it's not Saruman asks 'who's there'. I think also this was the first time Sauron came into contact with a Hobbit, or seen a hobbit. He just learned about them recently, and never saw one before, so he wouldn't know who Pippin was. Once Pippin responds that he's a Hobbit, Sauron then sees him and laughs:

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me.'

Pippin had to tell Sauron he was a hobbit.

How would Sauron know what a hobbit looks like if he's never seen a Hobbit before?

He thought he was in Isengard. If you can't even tell where the person is you are talking to, then the method of communication you are using is certainly less than perfect.

What we are told from the UT, this is where the problem occurs. Because objects were 'blinded' or blotted out unless there was some sort of light reflecting off them. This was in the dark, at night, there was the 'moonlight gleaming off its surface', but that's all. So, without the light on objects, you couldn't see any surroundings (but that doesn't mean you couldn't see another viewer) Now a person of significant willpower could do a 'shrouding' effect and cover up objects, or they could cause the palantir to concentrate one some point, but this took quite a bit of willpower and was extremely tiring. Pippin definitely wouldn't be able to do this.

Perhaps it was premature of me to say that Sauron saw exactly everything he wanted, because he obviously couldn't tell the stone wasn't in Orthanc anymore. But, I don't see how we can get a sense that Sauron didn't see Pippin. Pippin saw Sauron and was able to recognize him, it's just that Sauron saw Pippin and was unable to recognize him (hence the 'Who is it?'). Probably because:

1) He's got a recent and limitted knowledge on Hobbits, most likely never saw one before, so literally wouldn't know who it is.

2) Also wondering why it wasn't Saruman who was viewing it, and wanted to know who was.

Anyway, asking 'Who is it' doesn't mean Sauron wasn't able to see Pippin, he just didn't know who was using it.

[the phantom]

How would Sauron know what a hobbit looks like if he's never seen a Hobbit before?

I would completely agree with that.

So in response to Fordim earlier theorizing on Sauron's thought process-

Hey, a hobbit? Is it the Ringbearing one or not? Hmmmmmm....a bit taller than the one Witchie told me about....not quite so red in the cheeks....younger than Baggins.....no sign of the Ring on his finger or around his neck.....no sense of Ringiness here......nope, it's not Frodo Baggins.

There is no way Sauron could've possibly seen Pippin in that much detail considering that he didn't know he wasn't Saruman at first. In addition, there's no way he had that much info on the hobbits already since Pip had to tell him "I'm a hobbit".

Sauron hadn't seen mug shots of the hobbits. If Sauron was given pics of the four hobbits he wouldn't have any idea which one was which.

And if anyone remembers, the original reason I'm arguing this point in the first place is simply to disprove the notion that Sauron could in any way rule Pip out as the Ring-bearer. I think Sauron thought Saruman had captured the Ring bearer! Why else get excited and send a Nazgul? Would Saruman go to the Shire and kidnap Lobelia and show her to Sauron? Nope. What's the point? There's only one reason for Saruman to show off a hobbit to Sauron- to say "I've got the Ring!"

I don't see how we can get a sense that Sauron didn't see Pippin.

Well, if we consider what you said about the whole "must be lighted" property of the palantir, Pippin was in a dark place, so perhaps it's possible that Sauron couldn't see him too well. If Sauron could really see him as plain as day then he would've screeched to a halt after his first word and said "Who is this?" but instead he finished two whole sentences, and asked only after Pip didn't answer. Sauron couldn't have fully seen Pippin. That wouldn't make sense.