Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[CSteefel]

I think Ingo makes a good point that one cannot decide the outcome of a battle purely based on the hierarchy in Middle Earth. Both Glorfindel and Ecthelion took down Balrogs in the Sack of Gondolin, and yet both were Elves (although mighty ones). Moreover, the particular powers that a figure has in Middle Earth is not necessarily the same as what they had in the Undying Lands, for example. And of course, it is Eowyn and Merry who finally take down the WK, despite their being relatively ordinary mortals.

Still, I think the problem with the Witch King and Gandalf is that the new powers of Gandalf were played up, both in the book and the movie. In the book, the WK is said to have been given new powers by Sauron, but Gandalf has been given additional powers as well, and as Gandalf says in meeting Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli again in Fangorn, "no weapons can hurt me". So I think there is a real problem in consistency here--it simply doesn't make sense that Gandalf should be de-staffed and unhorsed so easily...

Thanks alatar for the greeting. I would agree with you one that, The two mightiest beings we see in combat, (with the exception of Galadriel and Sauron) facing off and it ends with a few words and Gandalf being thrown to the ground.

I think the inconsistancy is in the characters becoming more powerful and then less powerful. As for Peter Jackson's portrayal of the scene, I think we would all agree that this is a powerful scene in the book, but its very short and he did the best he could without stretching it out and making it something else.

The WK couldn't have known for sure where the Ring was at the time of the Siege of Minas Tirith. It is perfectly possible that Gandalf had the Ring in his possession as the WK confronted him. So why the overconfidence shown by the WK in these circumstances? What would have happened if Gandalf DID have the Ring? Would the WK have still gone into battle, or realise that he is way overmatched & withdraw?

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Still, I think the problem with the Witch King and Gandalf is that the new powers of Gandalf were played up, both in the book and the movie. In the book, the WK is said to have been given new powers by Sauron, but Gandalf has been given additional powers as well, and as Gandalf says in meeting Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli again in Fangorn, "no weapons can hurt me". So I think there is a real problem in consistency here--it simply doesn't make sense that Gandalf should be de-staffed and unhorsed so easily...

I would re-phrase that to '' none of YOU have weapons that could hurt me . . .'', meaning that there could be other weapons which could still harm him. Interesting to know that Anduril could pierce the Witch-King, but not Gandalf the White though, a hint that the Witch King is more vulnerable to fall than Gandalf.

[Raynor]

So why the overconfidence shown by the WK in these circumstances?

Practical reasons I would say. Even if he did have some fears about this, he wouldn't show them, it would be to his disadvantage. Plus, instilling fear was his main attribute, he should use it even when bluffing.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The WK couldn't have known for sure where the Ring was at the time of the Siege of Minas Tirith. It is perfectly possible that Gandalf had the Ring in his possession as the WK confronted him. So why the overconfidence shown by the WK in these circumstances? What would have happened if Gandalf DID have the Ring? Would the WK have still gone into battle, or realise that he is way overmatched & withdraw?

We are speaking about the movies, right? Didn't one of the Winged Nazgul (whichever one) see Frodo in possession of the One Ring in Osgiliath?

I would re-phrase that to '' none of YOU have weapons that could hurt me . . .'', meaning that there could be other weapons which could still harm him. Interesting to know that Anduril could pierce the Witch-King, but not Gandalf the White though, a hint that the Witch King is more vulnerable to fall than Gandalf.

Your Gandalf quote, though fitting for how the character is portrayed by PJ, is starting to sound like 'legalese.' And how do we know how the Witch-King would be affected by Anduril?

Originally Posted by alatar

We are speaking about the movies, right? Didn't one of the Winged Nazgul (whichever one) see Frodo in possession of the One Ring in Osgiliath?



Your Gandalf quote, though fitting for how the character is portrayed by PJ, is starting to sound like 'legalese.' And how do we know how the Witch-King would be affected by Anduril?

Isn't Frodo at this stage close to Gondor? He could have made it back in time to hand the Ring over to Gandalf.

If Sting could pierce the Witch King, why not Orcrist or Anduril? The latter is the mightiest of all the blades, unless I am mistaken.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Isn't Frodo at this stage close to Gondor? He could have made it back in time to hand the Ring over to Gandalf.

Sure, except that Gandalf was either at Helm's Deep or in route to Helm's Deep. Surely the Great Sauron would keep an 'eye' on one of his major foes.

If Sting could pierce the Witch King, why not Orcrist or Anduril? The latter is the mightiest of all the blades, unless I am mistaken.

Sting did not pierce the Witch-King or any undead, and so we don't really know what this spider's bane would have done. I'm not sure if Anduril is the mightiest of all blades. Also, note that in the movie two nonmagical blades take down the Witch-King (though in the books Merry's blade is specifically designed to bite the Angmar King.).

Cheers.

Originally Posted by alatar

Sure, except that Gandalf was either at Helm's Deep or in route to Helm's Deep. Surely the Great Sauron would keep an 'eye' on one of his major foes.



Sting did not pierce the Witch-King or any undead, and so we don't really know what this spider's bane would have done. I'm not sure if Anduril is the mightiest of all blades. Also, note that in the movie two nonmagical blades take down the Witch-King (though in the books Merry's blade is specifically designed to bite the Angmar King.).

Cheers.

I believe somebody did raise an earlier post a few months ago saying that in a letter Tolkein describes how the WK is left shaken by the fact that he was very nearly pierced by Frodo's sword at Weather Top which would have been as deadly to the WK as the WK's knife on Frodo. Whether the Sword of Elendil is the mightiest blade of all is debatable, but it must be one of them due to its ability to pierce Sauron at the height of his power.

In the movie, Galadriel gives Merry & Pippin elven blades as gifts before they depart from Lorien, so they may still have been of use to the same effect against the WK as in the book.

Frodo could have reached Gondor with the aid of Faramir if he chose to do so, in the nick of time for Gandalf to at least gain possession of the Ring, if not wield it even.