Tolkien and Norse Mythology

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Unless my knowledge is getting rusty, a raven brought to Apollo some evil news concerning his beloved one; in anger, Apollo turns him black. -

Fascinating. It sure puts a spin on Poe.

Originally Posted by Edgar Allan Poe

Only this and nothing more
. . .
Quoth the raven, Nevermore.

[Lalwendë]

I have no idea why but ever since I read about it I've been fascinated by the Nidhoggr from Norse Mythology (possibly as it's slightly dragon like and dwells in the Underworld thus pairing up two of my fascinations...).

The Nidhoggr is the dragon-like creature which dwells at the foot of Yggdrasil and gnaws the roots. Rather like the Nameless Things which live in the roots of Middle-earth, creatures which remain nameless because they are so terrifying, and also quite like the Watcher, lurking in the darkness. Then there's the Ratatoskr, the squirrel creature which runs up and down the trunk of Yggdrasil, passing insults to and fro from the eagle at the top (Eagles nest in the Misty Mountains?) to Nidhoggr at the bottom. And there's Jormungandr the serpent of the mid-world (Midgard, or Middle-earth) who is so large he can encircle the world and swallow his own tail, which brings to mind the Worm Ouroboros and the symbol of the Ring.

But back to the Nidhoggr. I was looking up for some information on this a while back and found some extracts from the Poetic Edda Voluspa. They stood out as in the 'original' (well, as far as I know it as original, not knowing the language) the language is so similar to some of Tolkien's word creations, and in the translation posted up (and they are both here) the imagery is just chilling :

She saw a hall standing,
far from the sun,
in Náströnd;
its doors are northward turned,
venom-drops fall
in through its apertures:
entwined is that hall
with serpent’s backs.
She there saw wading
the sluggish streams
bloodthirsty men
and perjurers,
and him who the ear beguiles
of another’s wife.
There Nidhögg sucks
the corpses of the dead;
the wolf tears men.
Understand ye yet, or what?

[davem]

Found this in my edition of Gibbon's Decline & Fall:

Gibbon’s note 21 to Ch 10:

The Ostro and Visi, the Eastern and Western Goths, obtained those denominations from their original seats in Scandinavia. In all their future marches and settlements they preserved, with their names, the same relative situation. When they first departed from Sweden, the infant colony was contained in three vessels. The third being a heavy sailer lagged behind, and the crew, which afterwards swelled into a nation, received from that circumstance the appellation of Gepidæ or Loiterers. Jornandes, c. 17.

[Lalwendë]

The other link I've been pondering is whether the Trickster in Tolkien's world might be found in the figure of Melkor as he bears some remarkable similarities to Loki.

Both are renowned for their skill with lies, frauds, cheats, deceptions. Loki is the father of Fenris and Melkor is the master of Carcharoth. Another of Loki's children is of course Jormungandr the serpent/dragon and we know that Melkor bred or corrupted Dragons into being. I wonder if Sauron corresponds to Hel? Or indeed if Sauron shares some of these characteristics? However, I do think that one of the differences between Melkor and Sauron is that Melkor seems much more skilled at deception, much more rounded a fraudster. And if we consider that he was Eru's creation then this would muddy his waters and make him much more appropriate as a Trickster like Loki.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The other link I've been pondering is whether the Trickster in Tolkien's world might be found in the figure of Melkor as he bears some remarkable similarities to Loki.

Yup. That was, actually, one of the first things (let's say, third) which I thought of when I first read the Valaquenta. But Melkor is rather a deciever, not a trickster: in this way, Loki is sort of "light version" of Melkor; but ultimately, Loki is far worse fella...
...now it came to me, what about Loki and Saruman? Now this is an idea! Because Loki was actually most of the time disguised as one friend of the other gods, so was Saruman. Melkor revealed himself quite early and with the supreme evidence brought in by Eru. But Saruman seems for me to fit more with the trickster element: all those White-council delays, and so on...
...or Wormtongue. (seems we are lessening and lessening the divine aspect of this)

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The other link I've been pondering is whether the Trickster in Tolkien's world might be found in the figure of Melkor as he bears some remarkable similarities to Loki.

Despite the similarities you point out between Loki and Melkor, the latter seems to bear a greater resemblance to the Judeo-Christian Satan; Tolkien even makes this one-to-one comparison in his Letters in a couple different places.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Despite the similarities you point out between Loki and Melkor, the latter seems to bear a greater resemblance to the Judeo-Christian Satan; Tolkien even makes this one-to-one comparison in his Letters in a couple different places.

We're not saying Melkor=Loki, that's far too simplistic, we're saying that in Melkor you might find a Trickster figure, comparing him with Loki, one of the best known tricksters.

I wouldn't say any character equals any mythic or literary figure, including saying Melkor=Satan, as this reduces Tolkien's creation and Art to mere allegory. I could dump a load of points here but we're talking Norse myth so I won't divert it off on to tangents well covered elsewhere.

Back to the Norse stuff anyway!

The other influence, drawn from the Eddas, a huge favourite with Tolkien, was that at Ragnarok, Loki will come down from the North with Hel and her subjects to fight in the last battle, as Melkor will do at the end of Ea. Like Loki, he too is an outcast because of the trouble he has caused: Melkor is cast into the Void by his Valar kin and Loki is chained to a rock.

Then there's also that intense pleasure that Melkor takes in sheer destruction. When he finds he cannot set up his own Ea or be a rival to Eru he just sets about smashing the place up - very Trickster-ish. He's quite a chaotic figure too, outside the 'rules' as far as he can get.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I wouldn't say any character equals any mythic or literary figure, including saying Melkor=Satan, as this reduces Tolkien's creation and Art to mere allegory.

Exactly. Tolkien would be turning in his grave and I would be very... displeased hearing anyone saying "Gandalf is Odin! Melkor is Satan! Saruman is Loki! Sauron is Gwa-bo-uhuru of the Shomgosh tribe of central Africa!" Heck, in my country, we have even a sculpture of ancient Slavic god Radegast. He has nothing in common with Radagast the Brown. Purely coincidential. There is beer named after him.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The other influence, drawn from the Eddas, a huge favourite with Tolkien, was that at Ragnarok, Loki will come down from the North with Hel and her subjects to fight in the last battle, as Melkor will do at the end of Ea. Like Loki, he too is an outcast because of the trouble he has caused: Melkor is cast into the Void by his Valar kin and Loki is chained to a rock..

I was waiting when someone is going to say this. The inspiration in Ragnarok is quite obvious (although we might argue that there could be also an inspiration in Armageddon, but this is not our topic now. After all, "Last battle" is very much common stuff). I am not very familiar with the things concerning Dagor Dagorath, but wasn't there in some version that Manwë's son should come to battle with Morgoth? (Referring to Vidar son of Odin.)
Although, with the Chaining of Melkor - especially during the first time, before the exile of Noldor - I always associated it with binding of Fenrir.

[Lalwendë]

Radagast beer? Now that's cool!

It's odd how just about all mythologies have an end times story and are finite; some with endless re-makings but with finite existences within that. Even odder is how the Universe itself according to the latest theory is finite in terms of Time; if I knew where to find some text I'd quote something about this but its mind-bending stuff - maybe one of our scientists knows where to find something? Incidentally, technology based on the silicon chip is also finite.

But I'm meandering again...

It says something in UT about Angainor, the chain forged to bind Melkor:

"Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his magic a seventh which he named therefore tilkal, and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Therefter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness...":

Loki is bound with the innards of his son Narfi, but Fenris the wolf (son of Loki) is bound with a chain, slender yet stronger than iron and made from the sound of a cat's footfall, a woman's beard, the roots of a mountain, the sinew of a bear, breath of a fish and spittle of a bird.

So Aule uses six metals to make Angainor, like the six things used to make Gleipnir which binds Fenris. Interestingly, Aule makes a seventh element to create Angainor which has all the properties of the other elements - just as Melkor shares in all the attributes of his kin.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I was waiting when someone is going to say this. The inspiration in Ragnarok is quite obvious (although we might argue that there could be also an inspiration in Armageddon, but this is not our topic now. After all, "Last battle" is very much common stuff). I am not very familiar with the things concerning Dagor Dagorath, but wasn't there in some version that Manwë's son should come to battle with Morgoth? (Referring to Vidar son of Odin.)
Although, with the Chaining of Melkor - especially during the first time, before the exile of Noldor - I always associated it with binding of Fenrir.

Well, yes but.... at Ragnarok, the good guys lose.

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Despite the similarities you point out between Loki and Melkor, the latter seems to bear a greater resemblance to the Judeo-Christian Satan; Tolkien even makes this one-to-one comparison in his Letters in a couple different places.

Possibly. My own feeling is that (as I've been discussing in the Akallabeth thread) we effectively have a dualistic myth in the Legendarium, Eru playing so irrelevant a part in the actual events. Gibbon has a nice account of Zoroastrianism which resonates quite strongly with the Legendarium:

The great and fundamental article of the system was the celebrated doctrine of the two principles; a bold and injudicious attempt of Eastern philosophy to reconcile the existence of moral and physical evil with the attributes of a beneficent Creator and Governor of the world. The first and original Being, in whom, or by whom, the universe exists, is denominated in the writings of Zoroaster, Time without bounds; but it must be confessed that this infinite substance seems rather a metaphysical abstraction of the mind than a real object endowed with self-consciousness, or possessed of moral perfections. From either the blind or the intelligent operation of this infinite Time, which bears but too near an affinity with the Chaos of the Greeks, the two secondary but active principles of the universe were from all eternity produced, Ormusd and Ahriman, each of them possessed of the powers of creation, but each disposed, by his invariable nature, to exercise them with different designs. The principle of good is eternally absorbed in light: the principle of evil eternally buried in darkness. The wise benevolence of Ormusd formed man capable of virtue, and abundantly provided his fair habitation with the materials of happiness. By his vigilant providence, the motion of the planets, the order of the seasons, and the temperate mixture of the elements are preserved. But the malice of Ahriman has long since pierced Ormusd’s egg; or, in other words, has violated the harmony of his works. Since that fatal eruption, the most minute particles of good and evil are intimately intermingled and agitated together, the rankest poisons spring up amidst the most salutary plants; deluges, earthquakes, and conflagrations attest the conflict of Nature; and the little world of man is perpetually shaken by vice and misfortune. Whilst the rest of human kind are led away captives in the chains of their infernal enemy, the faithful Persian alone reserves his religious adoration for his friend and protector Ormusd, and fights under his banner of light, in the full confidence that he shall, in the last day, share the glory of his triumph. At that decisive period the enlightened wisdom of goodness will render the power of Ormusd superior to the furious malice of his rival. Ahriman and his followers, disarmed and subdued, will sink into their native darkness; and virtue will maintain the eternal peace and harmony of the universe.

The theology of Zoroaster was darkly comprehended by foreigners, and even by the far greater number of his disciples; but the most careless observers were struck with the philosophic simplicity of the Persian worship. “That people,” says Herodotus, “rejects the use of temples, of altars, and of statues, and smiles at the folly of those nations, who imagine that the gods are sprung from, or bear any affinity with, the human nature. The tops of the highest mountains are the places chosen for sacrifices. Hymns and prayers are the principal worship; the Supreme God who fills the wide circle of heaven, is the object to whom they are addressed.” Yet, at the same time, in the true spirit of a polytheist, he accuses them of adoring Earth, Water, Fire, the Winds, and the Sun and Moon. But the Persians of every age have denied the charge, and explained the equivocal conduct which might appear to give a colour to it. The elements, and more particularly Fire, Light, and the Sun, whom they called Mithra, were the objects of their religious reverence, because they considered them as the purest symbols, the noblest productions, and the most powerful agents of the Divine Power and Nature.

Every mode of religion, to make a deep and lasting impression on the human mind, must exercise our obedience by enjoining practices of devotion, for which we can assign no reason; and must acquire our esteem, by inculcating moral duties analogous to the dictates of our own hearts. The religion of Zoroaster was abundantly provided with the former, and possessed a sufficient portion of the latter. At the age of puberty the faithful Persian was invested with a mysterious girdle, the badge of the divine protection; and from that moment all the actions of his life, even the most indifferent or the most necessary, were sanctified by their peculiar prayers, ejaculations, or genuflexions; the omission of which, under any circumstances, was a grievous sin, not inferior in guilt to the violation of the moral duties. The moral duties, however, of justice, mercy, liberality, &c., were in their turn required of the disciple of Zoroaster, who wished to escape the persecution of Ahriman, and to live with Ormusd in a blissful eternity, where the degree of felicity will be exactly proportioned to the degree of virtue and piety.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I actually a short time before thought about a strange resemblance of the character of Odin to... now, what are you expecting me to say? Manwë? No, actually I thought about Sauron.
I'd better explain why, now. The resemblances which came to my mind are the following:
Odin, as many of you possibly know, has traded his eye for wisdom. He had but one eye, later then. It somehow reminds me of Sauron: losing much of his power, putting it to the Ring or losing it with his defeat. We all know that the most important symbol of Sauron in the Third Age was the Lidless eye, watching everything it could. Odin's two ravens patroling the Midgard also fit with the image of Sauron in my mind. And all those birds used as spies by the Enemy are well known (although the bird-spynet is typical for both the sides in ME). And two wolves were lying next to his throne - okay, this fits more with Melkor, but first, who knows, and second, imagining Odin in Tol-in-Gaurhoth does not look that bad.
Odin is also, and this is what brought me to this idea in the first place, a Necromancer. He was the lord of magic and leader of the dead hosts.
And if I remember correctly, Odin had something like a ring which happened to create eight more rings in some periods of time.

So, what do you think? It is relevant to think of Sauron as having some inspiration in Odin, or not?
(Note please that I am far from saying "look ye, look ye, Sauron is Odin!". I know better than well that there are thousands of characters whom Odin resembles more, and Odin certainly fits more to the "good guys" environment, and when I remember him walking in an old pilgrim's shape... I'm just pointing out these similarities to Sauron because I noticed it, that's all.)

[Lalwendë]

Good stuff, Legate! The odd thing is it's not just sauron who bears resemblances to Odin, but someone who Tolkein seems to set up as his opposite 'power', Gandalf.

Sauron shares those aspects of Odin which are darker: the one eye (though this is more of a symbol for Sauron, I don't think he's actually one-eyed); the ability to see everything in the world; blood sacrifice; the gold Ring Draupnir which spawns eight gold rings every nine days; he is master of wolves and of ravens.

Gandalf on the other hand shares those aspects of Odin which are good: he is 'sacrificed' upon Yggdrasil and returns for 'death' much stronger, much more knowledgeable; he rides the magical eight legged horse Sleipnir, the master of all horses; he wears a wide brimmed hat, has a long beard and a staff.

Tolkien in fact said of Gandalf that he was "an Odinic wanderer". I love this combination of aspects of one Norse God into two Maiar!

And just to add to this, the runic symbol of Odin is the Valknut, three interconnected triangles, rather like the Celtic Triquestra (a symbol shared by both Pagans and Christians) and the rather eerily, co-incidentally named interconnecting triple circles, the Borromean Rings.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Actually you are not the only one who have spottet this resamblance between Odin and Sauron, David Day has writen about it in "Tolkien's Ring" a book I found highly facinating and was what made me like LotR for other things than just being a good story.

I for some reason also gets to think of Odin when Sauron and Finrod has their battle of verse. . .I suppose it is because Odin is the god of poetry (so is his son Brage). And indeed there was magic conected to poetry in the norse mythology, runes them self was magical.

Also the fact that he could change apearantses and even though old he was fair, but gruesome much like Sauron of the second age.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Thanks for mentioning Lal. . .I completely forgot how Odin seem to have been split up between Gandalf and Sauron, very interesting. I belive David Day mentions it as well.

Odin and Loke is both very complex gods and in a way very much like each other. . .yet Odin is generally precived as good and Loke as evil, which I find very interesting.

I would very muched have liked to have this kind of charachter in Tolkiens books, it would be a nice change from all the "Good guy" "Bad guy" stuff there is going on.

I am not saying that there are not charachters with both good and bad traits in tolkiens books, there are. I just would really have loved to see a complex person, that one would not know where to place. . . Is he good or is he bad?

You have hints of it in Boromir, but very simplefied and I guess one could argue that you see a bit in Thorin and Saruman as well.

oh but now I am getting off topic in my own thread. . . .

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Great, I was afraid that this might be taken as mindless babbling on nonsenses

Lal, I also love the idea of Gandalf&Sauron both possessing the Odinic traits! When you consider the statements like "I was the Enemy of the Enemy" (Gandalf), it is definitely fascinating. Or, let the Unfinished Tales speak:

To the overthrow of Morgoth [Manwë] sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name.

I love the part where Olórin says to Manwë and Varda that he does not want to go to Middle-Earth, because he is afraid of Sauron. You know, I always imagined Gandalf participating on the Music of Ainur (great fantasy, by the way) and Sauron being there, singing something else right beside him.

While we are at the finding of similarities... one more thing about the Sleipnir-Shadowfax case... did Tolkien state exactly in his books how many legs did Shadowfax have?

Back to Gandalf-Odin, I also remember that the scene before the Battle of Five armies when a clooked figure shows Thorin the Arkenstone, I always imagined Gandalf there as Odin...

And Rune, good idea about the battle with Finrod. Folks, I'd like to see Gandalf dueling with Sauron! Now this is something PJ could do! (Although on second thought... maybe not.)

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

And just to add to this, the runic symbol of Odin is the Valknut, three interconnected triangles, rather like the Celtic Triquestra (a symbol shared by both Pagans and Christians) and the rather eerily, co-incidentally named interconnecting triple circles, the Borromean Rings.

Kinda scary, eh?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate

Back to Gandalf-Odin, I also remember that the scene before the Battle of Five armies when a clooked figure shows Thorin the Arkenstone, I always imagined Gandalf there as Odin...

Of course in Norse myth, there's also the Brisingamen, the magical necklace wron by Freyja, which was forged by four Dwarves (one is called Dvalin) and which she gives to those warriors who she favours in war. It appears in the story of Beowulf, where the uncannily named Hama appears.

Another slightly random link is the Bifrost Bridge between Asgard (Aman) and Midgard (Middle-earth) which makes me think right away of Helcaraxe. But in the myths Bifrost Bridge is a rainbow, which would make it unlike Helcaraxe, but rather like the notion of the Straight Road. It makes me think of what Frodo sees as he goes that way:

And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.

Originally Posted by Rune

I would very muched have liked to have this kind of charachter in Tolkiens books, it would be a nice change from all the "Good guy" "Bad guy" stuff there is going on.

I am not saying that there are not charachters with both good and bad traits in tolkiens books, there are. I just would really have loved to see a complex person, that one would not know where to place. . . Is he good or is he bad?

I don't know. I think that almost all of the characters we see are anything but perfect. Of course we all know they are on the 'good' side from our advantage as readers, but it doesn't seem that way from the point of view of someone in Middle-earth. Would you for example, as an ordinary person in Rohan really know Eomer was innocent after your King had condemned him? Would you as an ordinary Dunlending know that Saruman was using you? If you were Sam, would you trust Frodo on Gollum? If you were one of Denethor's loyal Men would you trust Gandalf?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I don't know. I think that almost all of the characters we see are anything but perfect. Of course we all know they are on the 'good' side from our advantage as readers, but it doesn't seem that way from the point of view of someone in Middle-earth. Would you for example, as an ordinary person in Rohan really know Eomer was innocent after your King had condemned him? Would you as an ordinary Dunlending know that Saruman was using you? If you were Sam, would you trust Frodo on Gollum? If you were one of Denethor's loyal Men would you trust Gandalf?

Exactly. This is one thing we still seem to forget, or to lose (like when you look and something and then, you move your sight elsewhere and you no longer remember exactly what it looked like): the Secondary world of Middle-Earth has its own reality. And this reality is very much real, because the characters are real. Yes, they are mythical, but they could live next door and they'd seem "normal" to you (well, except these strange outfits or liliputan sizes). They are all complex. So that's not what would bother me, Rune.

Back to the original topic. One more thing I now remembered about that ring of Odin. I am not sure, but wasn't it also... well... used to control the Valkyries? Which brings me to... Is there known the number of the Valkyries? But there were surely more than just nine, were they...
You know, also, the Valkyries riding wolves and flying in the skies over the battlefield , make a very good image of the Nazgul. Being Sauron/Odin's followers, I find this resemblance pretty close.