Melkor/Arda Marred or Remade

[Saurreg]

Hurrah! Finally, a thought provoking thread!

On Morgoth's Powers

Melkor was originally percieved as the most powerful of the Ainur because he had a) a bit of every one of the Valar's powers and b) unlike the valars that could only understand some concepts of thought that Illuvatar planted in them, Melkor knew evil, fear and perhaps even what was good and pure. So the basis of Melkor's greatness was the nature of his powers and his innate knowledge.

However was he really that powerful? From the Silmarillion I always thought that Melkor was a jack of all trades but master of none. He could make, enchant and fightetc etc, but in each field he was not greater than the respective vala of which that talent was attributed to. He could never master the elements like Manwe or Ulmo, shape and create like Aule and Varda nor could he fight or hunt as well as Orome and Tulkas. He was versatile but I think that was the only advantage he had over the individual valars.

So is greatness measured by the innate ability of an individual or by deeds?

On Transformation

I do not really agree with Tolkien on the fact that by transforming one's self into flesh and bone, an Ainur would have greater power over the physical world. The world is made out of various elements in which most are not even part of the basic built-up of the living carbon-based body. I word I'm looking for here is linkage - I tend to think that if you transform into something, having the basic biological compatibility to an element you wish to control would help (why we are able to ingest small amounts of iron and still be healthy but Sulphur and heavy metals are a no go eg.).

Unless Morgoth's only aim was to control other living carbon-based lifeforms alone, I think he would have been better of in the "incorporeal" form. After all it would seem that the Valars had greater control and displays of power in a non-permanent body.

On Morgoth's Role in the Greater Plan

As Illuvatar stated itself, all sources of power were from him alone and those who thought otherwise were only deluding themselves. I should suppose the Morgoth's role was very similar to those of Loki, Surtur, the giants of Jotum - to lead to the creation of a new world. Of course Morgoth would not know but then who can understand the intents of an ominipotent deity?

[Thinlómien]

We can surely say that Melkor was essential for Arda, most of the beautiful things there ever came to be and remaking of it. Without him, much would have been different.

Originally Posted by Saurreg

On Morgoth's Role in the Greater Plan
As Illuvatar stated itself, all sources of power were from him alone and those who thought otherwise were only deluding themselves. I should suppose the Morgoth's role was very similar to those of Loki, Surtur, the giants of Jotum - to lead to the creation of a new world. Of course Morgoth would not know but then who can understand the intents of an ominipotent deity?

I very much agree with this.

I would like to compare Melkor to Judas in a way. They both became bad guys and did horrible deeds, because it was part of the big god's plan, and both suffered from fulfilling the part of the evil guy, though the part was essential: if not them , someone else would have made the evil deeds.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I would like to compare Melkor to Judas in a way. They both became bad guys and did horrible deeds, because it was part of the big god's plan, and both suffered from fulfilling the part of the evil guy, though the part was essential: if not them , someone else would have made the evil deeds.

Hm, I don't agree with the suffering part, at least not for Melkor. We know of only one time he was phisically hurt, when fighting Fingolfin and being scarred by mighty Thorondor. He was two times chained, once imprisoned and at last executed by Mandos. But I don't think he received any "unhuman" treatment from his enemies, and if anything, he suffered foremost and mostly at ego level, acknowledging his actual place in the world. In the end, I don't think he had one bit of taste of what he did to his own victims.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, I don't agree with the suffering part, at least not for Melkor. We know of only one time he was phisically hurt, when fighting Fingolfin and being scarred by mighty Thorondor. He was two times chained, once imprisoned and at last executed by Mandos. But I don't think he received any "unhuman" treatment from his enemies, and if anything, he suffered foremost and mostly at ego level, acknowledging his actual place in the world. In the end, I don't think he had one bit of taste of what he did to his own victims.

I partly agree. It is true that he did not suffer as much as his victims did, but he did suffer. (Of course we can always argue, was his suffering justified, but I was trying to avoid that argument... )

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I partly agree. It is true that he did not suffer as much as his victims did, but he did suffer. (Of course we can always argue, was his suffering justified, but I was trying to avoid that argument... )

When you mentioned suffering, were you by chance suggesting that Morgoth could not help but be evil because that was Illuvatar's plans for him - to play the villain in a cosmic ballad so that a new and better world could be made?

In that case his would be the saddest story of them all.

[Macalaure]

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'
But Mandos said: 'And yet remain evil. To me shall Fëanor come soon.'

~ Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

This passage is not about Melkor, but I think Manwë's and Mandos' points apply to him as well. Maybe Eru had Melkor's rebellion and fall to evil in mind when he 'created' him. But Eru also devised him with a free will. Melkor didn't have to fall to evil, he could have chosen otherwise. So even if Eru foresaw Melkor's course, it doesn't alter Melkor's responsibility for his deeds. Though good came from them, they themselves remain evil.
I wonder how Eä would have been like if Melkor had not become evil. What deeds to the glory of Ilúvatar would he have been able to accomplish? What could 'He who arises in Might' have added to the whole? I think we will agree that, regardless, it would have been a much more perfect and pure world - and consequently incredibly dull.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Melkor didn't have to fall to evil, he could have chosen otherwise.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Manuscript A, Of the severance of marriage, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X

For Eru is Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purposes, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them.

Originally Posted by Letter #200

Sauron had been attached to the greatest, Melkor, who ultimately became the inevitable Rebel and self-worshipper of mythologies that begin with a transcendent unique Creator.

Originally Posted by Letter #153

Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view.

Originally Posted by Note 7, Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X

[Eru] must as Author always remain 'outside' the Drama, even though that Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment.

I believe that the conclusion, in the light of these arguments, is that Eru meant for Melkor to 'fall'; all in all, I don't think Melkor had that a bad ride , well, unless we count his temporary end on Arda.